To expect him to pay?

[AtSea1979]

This is going to sound terrible I know but for some reason I feel it.
Went on first date with a guy last week, paid £20 babysitter, and met him for drinks, we both bought a round.
He told me he had a lovely time and would I like to go out for dinner next week, I said yes.
Tonight, I paid babysitter another £20, and went out for meal, when bill came I got my purse out to pay (total £55) my half but then he put £30 down and I was surprised he didn't tell me to put my purse away. Even though I would have said no and paid half I still feel like he should have paid the full.
I know they are my kids and my responsibility but I still wonder whether I want to date someone again who is so tight.
AIB completely U? (and date I say, sexist?) Or would others feel similar?

"would you have sex with me for a million pounds and dinner at the Savoy?"

"yes, I think I would"

"how a pint and a carvery?"

"What sort of woman do you think I am?"

"We've already established that. All we're doing now is haggling over the price"

(with apols to WC Fields)

This Wine tasting thing is bollocks too.

It's increasingly a screw cap. It can't be corked.

Whoah, it's like feminism never happened!

YABU to "expect" him to pay for your dinner. Why should he??? You are meeting up to get to know each other a bit better and have a nice meal. And the babysitting money isn't his concern.

If you can't afford it you need to tell him and scale back on your dates.

I didn't really "date" all that often in my younger days - I tended to hook up with men I had got to know as friends through mutual hobbies, work, other friends etc. But even - especially - when I did date people who were practically strangers, I expected to pay my way. My mum was pretty traditional but even she brought me up never to be "beholden" to anyone.

Maybe it was a wee bit unusual back in the day (I'm in my 50s now) and I do remember being pretty determined about it, getting my purse out quickly, no-nonsense. It was important to me to make the point that I didn't need their money, it was their company I was interested in. Once I was in an established relationship with someone, it seemed to matter less who paid. (And now I'm married it makes no difference!)

Are you a prostitute careerist?

Everyone is really confused about what is expected of them too. I remember insisting on paying and being told that I was "one of those", so I tend not to insist now as I don't want to be seen as too strident.

Ok, yes. I will say, there is this if you as a woman offer to pay for both on a first date instead of dutching. Some men see it as a bit off putting and emasculating, others think it's awesome. It's hard to guage.

Really, there needs to be a better system to avoid after dinner weirdness. The "rules" are all grey areas. If a guy offers to pay, do you accept? If he wants to dutch is he being cheap? If he expects you to pay, what does that say about him?

Then there's a problem if you do let him pay, does he now expect something (and some guys did, and that attitude is what put me off a second date ever again)? Actually, one guy seemed nice and I went back to his place since he just wanted to hang and he bombarded me with converting to his religion, my views on abortion, and what I thought about kids and marriage. That was the first and last date with that one. After that, I was convinced there was never a good reason to go back to a guy's place on the first or second date.

I actually avoided dinners for this reason or we establish at the beginning of the date, he gets dinner I get the movies and we get our own snacks. It ends up being a similar price range for me because I wouldn't go anywhere too fancy for dinner as it just felt awkward. I liked to keep it casual and low key so I wasn't fretting over getting a reasonable item on the menu.

Anyway, these stupid arbitrary rules are why I decided dating was stupid and called it quits (and then I met DH). It's hard to have a fun time when you're trying to keep everything in mind like that.

I pay my way.i don't expect dates/friends to pay
And if i were dating,and a man didn't like.well tough titty

If two people make an arrangement to go out together in the context of online dating then clearly it's a mutual thing. If the woman enters into some fictional state in her head about feminine/romantic/tradition then I suppose it's up to her if she wants to trade feminism for a free/low cost evening out.

The main thing is that so long as this attitude isn't transferred to the female children, it should die out in a generation.

As far as the comments above which are effectively "is the man keen enough to pay for whatever I think/he thinks he's paying for?" that is dodgy as fuck.

I am gobsmacked to see there are so many women who expect men to pay for them on dates.

I'm pleasantly surprised to see so many thinking that it's outdated to expect the man to pay automatically.

absolutely it's outdated
I could never be friends with the kind of women who think otherwise

I pay my way.i don't expect dates/friends to pay
And if i were dating,and a man didn't like.well tough titty

There is a difference between expecting someone to pay and accepting an offer though. If I offer to buy my friends coffee and they refuse, honestly I'd be a bit hurt because I wanted to do something nice for them and they wouldn't let me. Likewise I wouldn't say no if a friend offered to buy me coffee because if they want to do something nice for me I let them. I would never expect them to, but if they did I would think they were being nice and let them.

I don't think it's a big deal to let a guy pay, hold a door, get you flowers, if he wants to. Hell, I'm flattered when on increasingly more rare now that we had DD date night when DH holds doors and acts like a gentleman. He likes doing it and if I didn't let him he'd be a bit miffed. I think most people would if they tried doing something nice and got shot down for it.

But as with always when dating, the point is to find a man compatible with you and what you expect out of a relationship.

I'm with PrincessBabyCat. Of course in today's egalitarian world (at least relative to the past) women shouldn't expect men to pay for them. Feminists have fought hard for women to earn the same as men and with that comes the ability / right to pay one's way.

But it's not as clear cut as that. This is how I imagine the vast majority of end-of-first-dates go in reality:

-bill arrives-

HIM: I'll get that.
HER: no really I'll get it / no let me at least pay half
HIM: No, I insist, my treat.

So what does she do? Does she

1. insist on paying and risk "emasculating" the man (DM's voice in head "always let the man think he's in charge!")

2. insist on paying and worse, risk being seen as a feminist (we all know how popular they are!)
   or

3. let the man pay and risk him now thinking that you owe him something and that if you don't "put out" there'll be a thread about you being a pricktease somewhere on a man's forum tomorrow?

4. let the man pay and feel the disapproval of the sisterhood whoosh past your ear as you have now given up all rights to political, intellectual and sexual equality.

I mean, come on, it's a damned-if-do damned-if-don't situation (for men too) made harder by the fact that you don't know the person very well and don't know his views on women paying yet.

So, what I'm saying is if you're confident enough to insist then great, but don't imply that every woman who doesn't is a whore / doormat / coquette / giving up her rights to equality.

quite often I actually want a wee anyway.

I don't think it's a question of stridently insisting on paying if a man insists on covering the bill, though I doubt the "vast majority" of first dates end like that these days, with the man iinsisting on paying for everything After all these days first dates are usually agreed with some degree of collaboration especially with the rise of Internet dating which involves some proactive seeking on both sides.

What I find appalling is the expectation of being paid for expressed by some women on here and the assertion that there wouldn't be a second date if that didn't happen.

I'm surprised that women who think a man they hardly know not paying for their meal indicates an undesirable personality trait of "tightness" in that man and don't have the self awareness to realise they are the ones being tight in not being willing to pay their share. Sad a few women seem to think that if they're pretty and may be willing to sleep with the bloke at some time they should get free meals and don't view it as prostitution. I don't weigh up how likely I am to be paying the whole bill by how handsome the bloke I'm dating is so why should men?
I agree with whoever it was up thread who said willingness to pay isn't an indicator of niceness either. It can be a sign of a controlling bloke who wants to make all the decisions in the relationship and views you as a possession not an equal.
I'm fussy about my wine and want an equal say in deciding what we're drinking. The most expensive wine on the menu may not compliment my food or be what I feel like drinking.
My exhusband once said early on in our relationship when discussing romantic gestures " when most women talk about romantic gestures they just mean men buying them stuff"
It looks as though he has a point by some of these posts.
To me a tight man is a man who expects me to pay for everything, not a man who expects me to pay my half, that's equality. We can't expect men to treat us as equals and do half the housework do their own ironing, sort out their families presents, spend time doing boring childcare tasks if we aren't prepared to also be equal in paying our way in dating.
If someone gave me a menu with no prices I'd leave, I probably pay for more meals than my husband anyway although it's a joint account so irrelevant who pays.

careeristbitchnigel

You don't like tight men!

Don't you see any utter hypocrisy in that point of view when you refuse to open your purse yourself?

If you went out with a person for a meal, and they hid in the loo when the bill arrived, what would you think of them?

2) insist on paying and worse, risk being seen as a feminist (we all know how popular they are!)

If a man was put off by me appearing to be 'a feminist' or being 'one of those' women there would be zero point in a second date anyway!

What does one do when bill arrives?one gets one card out,divvy up cost plus tip
Simple as that.no need to run a convoluted scenario in head full of what ifs
Its not out of ordinary for two adults to pay a meal.his ego will survive it

It is out of ordinary and sicially not the norm to hide in the bogs,to avoid payment

I arrange to meet up with friends all the time but that doesn't mean I pay for everything all the time. What a daft assumption that the person asking pays.

At least the thread has given me something else to add to the list to teach DS, never pay for the dates in full. That way you can establish if the girl likes you for who you are or whether she's more interested in your wallet. Given this thread and the other one where women admitted choosing their husband based on his earnings potential so they didn't have to work or could have everything bought for them it may take him some time to find a partner who works and contributes financially and does not come from the 1900s!

They are dating, they're not mates.

They are hardly dating, that have had 2 dates. I wouldn't call that dating.

"Wrong it may be, what with equality and feminism and all that, but I know I wouldn't want to date a guy long term if he didn't want to pay in full for the first date" Can you imagine a man saying that about a woman?

Seriously, come on. We want equality, we the right to be exactly the same in every way possible as men, yet we don't want to pay our food bills? If you can't afford it op, don't go.

I would expect the same if a man asked me out really. He trying to impress me. So why not pay yourself, for the both of you? After all, are you not trying to impress him too?

Maybe I should have paid it all then he's have got the message for next time and not mess around coppering up! I think you need to text him now, tell him that you expect HIM to pay for the date. Give him a chance to see what a money grabber he is getting involved with.

And yes, if some here are happy to call HIM tight, I am happy to call op grabby

If financial support and security are important to you then he has made it clear you won't find it there. I can see bickering over who pays for what in the not too distant future. Like you, I would have insisted on paying half, but it would have been nice for him to think you were worth shelling out thirty quid on. Keep searching for someone who shows you he can treat you every so often. Bloody hell, that's quite a leap! So because he didn't pay for her meal, he isn't reliable, financially? because of our age, dh & did most of our "dating' while babysitting for friends. So no way for him to 'prove' his financial reliability. However, over 25yrs on, I can categorically state that he is VERY reliable financially. He works, I don't & what he earns if equally ours.

Why this need to write off a man who isn't paying everything, when there has only been 2 dates?

On returning to the table where, hopefully, coffee has been served it is quite usual that my date has settled the bill. What the hell is wrong with that? Because you are very clearly doing as you have the expectation that your date will pay. And you will judge that date if he doesn't! It's the expectation that makes you grabby!

YANBU I have two boys and I would expect them to offer to pay on a first date. I have 2 girls who I am raising to understand that if you want something, you pay for it yourself. I would hope my dcs aren't grabby & demanding a man pay for everything. I would hope they have a little more about them than to expect to have money spent on them by any man (or woman) they choose to date.

I wonder what the replies would be if the other person was female? So 2 females dating instead of a man & woman. Would you all expect a female date to pay your way too, or is it just men who have to prove they are happy to splash the cash on a woman they barely know.

Dump run move on Yes, please do. Because everyone has the right to be like for who they are, not because they are willing to spend money on impressing you.

he should make her feel special. So he doesn't need to be made to feel special?

YANBU this had nothing to do with gender equality but just basic good manners. So why are the ops 'basic good manners' stopping her from paying for HIS meal? Or is is just men who have to have good manners.

they should be expected to fucking cough up. All those bitching "YABU" are letting men have their cake and eat it. FFS. And we wonder why women get a hard time? Wow!

*-bill arrives-

HIM: I'll get that.
HER: no really I'll get it / no let me at least pay half
HIM: No, I insist, my treat.*

Suggested response if you're hoping there'll be further dates
Thankyou very much. Next time, I'll pay

Suggested response if you don't think there'll be further dates
Thankyou very much.

I don't think the person asking pays. The person being asked has the option at the point of accepting to say "That'd be great, shall we go halves?" or "That'd be great, how about I pay this time?" or "I'd love to , but at the moment, finances are a bit stretched"

Paying for a meal to my mind is not in the same realm of 'chivalry' as opening doors. In fact, opening doors is not chivalry, it's good manners. If I am coming in/out of somewhere and someone is coming towards me, or walking close behind me, I'll hold the door open for them: Young/old/male/ female/obviously disabled/not obviously disabled/any racial type/any sexual persuasion.

Unless someone has specifically said "I will take you out for a meal" then I would expect to pay my way.

Or risk being seen as a feminist(we all know how popular they are!) priceless
Yes one must not be seen to support any of that equality rubbish.heavens above
Wouldnt want to make oneself unpopular,esp not to men.men who pay restaurant bill

Is it me, or does anyone else thing David Gandy looks like an older Robbie Jackson, form EE?

2) insist on paying and worse, risk being seen as a feminist (we all know how popular they are!) There is nothing wrong with feminists. However, this is the type of thing that gives feminists a bad name.

The 'we want equality except when we are dating, then we expect them man to pay' is very damaging to all women.

This type of thing expectation man pay has nothing to do with feminism
Some women have an expectation man pay their bill,its not a universal expectation
When dp and i go out we pay equally.unless prior agreement that one pay eg celebration