to be toying with the idea of having a baby alone with donated sperm?

[honeykitten]

Reasonably financially secure, no family whatsoever to help and no man on the horizon (mid 30s.)

I know I am a daft old woman

I'm thinking Writer it's because the DC is no longer legally a child and so there isn't the expectation that the donor will be somehow involved in their upbringing??

I suspect it's about parental responsibility (not being able to make contact under 18)

tangerine yes I see the point of the difference between accident and design, but as I said before we have free and almost 100% effective contraception in this country. And as a GP, in my 20 years experience, i would say that most unplanned pregnancies occur when no contraception is being used at all, other than a strong desire to not get pregnant and maybe some crossing of fingers. Yet parents in this situation are viewed on MN as blameless, but people like me are vilified, at least they are on this thread.

I know this isn't about parents, it's about the kids - but if us DC parents sound defensive, that's why.

No, we aren't constantly reminded of some inalienable right to have your own birth child. Lots of people don't have them, there is no such right at all.

Fighting for equal rights....? Equal to who? What are these mythical rights you think you are missing that naturally concieved children automatically have? The right to know who your father is? Thats been put in place now(iirc), but there plenty of children born the regular way who don't know that. There is no right to it, there never has been.

Agreed Jolly. It is upsetting and I remember really well feeling judged like this when I was pregnant with Dd. Someone where I work told colleagues behind my back that I was "doing a terrible thing to that man" meaning my friend who was the donor. She percieved, wrongly, that I had somehow forced him into it and then later she suggested that I was preventing him from being a "hands on dad". He didn't want to be one and lived in another part of the country, had no intention of moving but was keen to be in touch with us periodically.

When you think of the amount of time and thought and agonising that is usual for people who use donors (known or unknown) compared to the lack of thought required for some people who get pregnant it is galling, sorry all but it is.

You're completely right, a lot of children are born into 'less than perfect' situations and all we can do is hope everything turns out ok.

I mentioned many pages back about how my grandparents were very anti me having a baby and were actually quite nasty to me about it. Their reason was because I take medication that can potentially harm the foetus and cause long term disabilities. I had a lot of pre-conception counselling and made amendments to my drug regime but I still 'selfishly' went ahead with TTC knowing that potentially I could be forcing life long difficulties on the baby. I suppose in that sense I was taking just as big a gamble with the child's life as mothers do who use sperm donation. So I have no place in passing comment really in terms of how we should 'think of the child before we think of ourselves'.

I'd never looked at my situation like this before.
If I'd had a baby with problems I would have known it was because of the choice I'd made and I'd have to explain that to the child one day. I'd have to say that the reason for their unhappiness/disability is because I had wanted a baby and had been prepared to take that risk for my own reasons without thinking about the consequences for the child.

I feel quite bad about it now.

I think, for many, the drive to have children is overwhelming, to the extent that we tell ourselves it will be OK, because it has to be, because the alternative (not having a child at all) is too unbearable to consider. If that makes us selfish and blinds us to the realities of the risks we are exposing our children too - well, I apologise, but I think I am then apologising for human nature. Yes some women don't mind remaining childless, and some actively want to remain so. But not all of us.

What an honest, gracious post Writer. You are right, people don't see the situation you were in in the same way as they do when someone uses a donor.

I don't think you were selfish but your last paragraph sums up how I felt when I was thinking about getting pregnant. I was totally focussed on having a baby at some points I actually felt as if I would do anything to have one and it seemed so incredibly unjust that I couldn't or possibly wouldn't.

It was only when I actually had one child that I saw things differently but that was a much more comfortable position to be in. I was not "desperate" to be a mum at that point. Had I not had a friend who agreed to be a donor I think I would have considered an anonymous one, actually I know I would.

Anyway, I hope you are ok Writer and I hope OP is ok. I think this thread has been incredibly insightful.

Thanks tangerine and I agree with what you say about how perspectives can change once the child comes along. Me and DH have now said that because of the risks we are not going to have another child. We have decided that now we have one healthy baby we won't take the gamble again by trying for a 2nd. Like you said, I don't have that 'urge' to have a child in me anymore because I have one now and I'm just grateful that it turned out ok.

It could just as easily have gone the other way though but like jolly said, when making the decision to TTC I probably told myself it would be ok because I couldn't bear to consider the alternative which would be to never have a baby.

Playing devil's advocate here, but would the donor-conceived adults be prepared to not have children themselves, because of the continuing (albeit a generation further back) genetic uncertainty? Could it be argued that a child could suffer from missing a quarter of its ancestry?

I also think that, in the same way that I can't truly grasp how it must feel to be donor-conceived, many people have no idea how it feels to face childlessness. Most people take having kids for granted. I have been through some absolutely awful things in my life and have remained intact and strong, but IVF treatment was the thing that came closest to breaking me.

I think it all comes down to the old cliche of walking a mile in someone else's shoes before you judge them

My perceptions are based on my age. I expect I would have thought differently had I been in my late thirties with no children.
It is when my eldest is 33 yrs and the youngest 23yrs, and I have seen all my friends children through from babies to similar ages, that I have different perceptions.
At the time it seems long, but looking back you have them for such a short time that you have them to nurture. I then -hopefully- have decades with adult children. That is the difficult part. When they are little you can sort everything out with a kiss and cuddle- when they are adults you can't solve their problems and protect them from life.
I am not worried about how the child will cope with it- with a loving family I am sure they will be fine. It does however worry me how the adult child copes with it.
Watching children grow up has been a huge surprise- you certainly don't get what you expect having seen the family and the small child!

I am interested in you view daughterofadonor that donors are 'giving away children'. Whether an egg or sperm donor, I have always thought of them as giving the gift of life. Perhaps sounds a bit Disney, but it is that which we wish to give thanks for, acknowledge on Fathers' Day etc. with our own children. I often look at them and think what an amazing thing the donor did. We can only hope they feel positive about their origins and upbringing.
I would also be interested to know if those who feel negatively are mainly from single parent families, whether the lacuna was created by the lack of a second parent (the perceived societal norm), which translated more naturally into want of a father rather than want of a second mother. The obvious father to want in such circumstances is one's biological father.

I doubt many DC think that a man wanking into a cup because they want to make £30 (or however much it is) is an 'amazing thing'.

I can't imagine many men do it purely for the selfless reason that they sincerely want to help women who can't have children.

Incidentally, I wonder how much they do get paid?
Or don't they?
If so ignore my above thoughts

catsize - that's a really interesting post you make about the need to have a father figure.

My parents divorced when I was 5. Thankfully they were able to maintain an amicable relationship (I'm sure it wasn't easy for a few years though) so me and my sister still grew up with him actively in our lives. We still felt sad that he wasn't a permanent daily fixture though whilst other children got to see their dad everyday. I think we probably put him on some kind of pedestal, I remember me and my sister looking forward to nothing more than seeing him and maybe that was because our time with him was seen as something excited - would we have him on such a pedestal if he'd actually lived with us and our parents were still together? Who knows.

Looking back my dad's was undoubtedly the Disney Dad (and mom was the,wan one for setting rules and boundaries) and even now as grown adults, there is something different about visiting my dad as opposed to going to visit my mom. I see my mom as something stable in my life, a person who is never going anywhere, yet I seem to look at my dad in some kind of awe, almost like I should be grateful he still maintained a relationship with me after the divorce. It's almost a sense of feeling like he must really love me because he still made such an effort after their split.

Writing it down sounds ridiculous I know and illogical. He's still on a kind of pedestal I think (it's the 'norm' for me now to feel that way) and I think my need to have my dad in my life is probably why I can empathise with DC because in my eyes, to never have that need fulfilled must be very, very hard.

As far as I'm aware (from talking to the lady that ran the embryology lab where I had my treatment) sperm donors are not paid anything more than basic expenses. They also have to go through quite a lot of tests, staggered over several months, as certain infections can take months to show.
I was told that most of them do it because they have had a friend or relative who has suffered infertility, and it's inspired them to do something to help others. If that sounds laughably altruistic, then just remember how many people give blood in exchange for a digestive biscuit!

I'm not saying it is a Disney sort of scenario Writer, my Dd's conception was old school......washed out yoghurt pot, friend disappears into bedroom, then reappears, I go into room, do the deed with a tiny syringe x 3 and that was it!! Ok, it's not Mills and Boon but my Dd is bloody fantastic so I really do dislike people making fun of the way she was concieved as thought it was something vile or ridiculous. My friend did a VERY kind thing in helping me and we made the most gorgeous little person together. I think it was miraculous actually.

He wasn't paid anything by the way and despite the delicate situations we sometimes find ourselves negotiating along the way as the relationship develops and Dd grows I will never forget what a truly wonderful thing he did. If it weren't for him I would not be a parent at all and that IS amazing to me.

writer it's interesting what you say about your Dad. My Dad was never particularly great when we were kids, and became useless when we were teens, so my idea of a father is very different from yours. But I was close to my brother, we were close in age so played together as kids, and dated eachother's friends in our teens. I can honestly count on the fingers of one hand the number of times we argued. So to me a sibling is hugely important, and being an only child would have made my childhood far less happy than it was. So it just goes to show, we are all a product of our own experiences, and our priorities are set accordingly.

Sorry if I caused any offence tangerine - it genuinely wasn't my intention.

jollyphonics - in terms of siblings, me and my sister are incredibly close. There's only 12 months and 2 weeks between us so our whole childhoods as spent growing up together. Every funny memory I have involves her, we did everything together, had the same friends and having her in my life undoubtedly made my childhood as great as it was. I completely love her and even as adults we still have our own little world and closeness. So I actually find it really, really odd that I don't feel more of an urge to have a 2nd child and provide my child with a sibling in the hope they will have a relationship like I did with my sister. I think that even if my health condition didn't pose any risks I still wouldn't have a 2nd child. It doesn't make much sense to me as you'd think based on my experience of having a sibling that I would want that for my child too.

My DH detests his brother and they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. That's why he isn't fussed about providing a sibling, because to him having a sibling isn't necessarily a positive

I doubt many DC think that a man wanking into a cup because they want to make £30 (or however much it is) is an 'amazing thing'.
Writer, can you show a bit more respect please? I am actually very offended by this.
And yes, it is mainly done for altruistic reasons.

I doubt kids in families with a male and female parent would find 'wanking in a cup' any worse than the thought of them being conceived as a result of their parents having, ugh, s.e.x.

'Wanking in a cup' is an unpleasant phrase to use.

Would anyone say something similar to woman who donate eggs?

Sorry all, it was just just a tongue in cheek throwaway comment, I really didn't mean to offend anyone and so I apologise catsize

It's ok to be prosaic about this as long as we can also be prosaic about the way children in nuclear families are conceived - not necessarily in a joyful union (although how many children would want to know that anyway about their conception ) but perhaps as a result of routine and joyless sex or a drunken fumble - or worse. No one feels it necessary to underline these facts to their children so there's really no need to do it for DC children.

I'm not offended though - I'm happy to offer up the prosaic details and my children know most of the details anyway although not quite as explicitly as writer put it. But this approach of honest, prosaic descriptions sums up exactly why people are trying to be honest about their experiences in nuclear families, with flawed parents or missing parents. Not to say that these things don't matter - but to say that one can overemphasise the sanctity of these things because many of us (most of us - perhaps even all of us) grow up with the prosaic version of the ideal.

There has been interesting food for thought on this thread and thank you everyone for sharing respectfully. I really do get a sense of the loss some people feel at the absence of a father - but I did search my soul over this and my conclusion (not everyone's conclusion - this is very personal) is that the greatest grief in my life was having a father who chose to have us and then didn't love us enough to stay and who then hurt us in lots of ways. I didn't go this route in order to avoid that outcome. It was more a reflection of my experience that grief and loss comes from lots of places and in lots of unexpected ways and we all have a journey to go through to come to terms with it. What was at the centre of my life was a strong and present mother (I can identify with everything you said about your mother writer). So I do know that my children will struggle. But I am confident I can help them work through this with a strong family to support them and with the donor information available to them in a few years' time.

Others will feel that this sort of absence is unbearable and therefore this is inexcusable. I simply don't feel that - but as I've said, I do think this is a question we answer in our souls. And we each will reach different conclusions.

BTW at the DCN event I went to there was an older donor child (40s?) talking honestly about her feelings so I don't think it's brushed under the carpet. She hadn't known until she was an adult and her main feeling was of having been "hoodwinked" - she felt she'd been lied to. It was very interesting and reinforced the DCN guidance that children should know their own story as early as possible.

Sorry so long

I can't begin to imagine why anyone would withhold the fact of their donor conception from their kids. It would be unthinkable to live with such a huge secret, and such a betrayal when the truth finally and inevitably came out.