Yes parents in restaurant, you were VU!

[Bogeyface]

It was not the waitress's fault that she tripped over your daughter who was running around with your son causing havoc, it was not the waitress's fault that your DD got caught on the arm with a fork that fell off the tray of pots she was carrying, it was yours. If you bothered to look after them instead of texting, talking and watching TV on your phones then it wouldnt have happened.

That was why the manager refused to give you a refund on the 5 meals you had, and I agreed with him when he said that a restaurant is not an appropriate place for a child to be running around. I also agreed with him when he said that if you couldnt keep your children under control then you would not be welcome back. So did everyone else, which is why no one jumped to your defence when you said "No one minds do they?" looking at the other diners.

Oh and btw, occasionally jiggling the buggy while you stuff your face is not a recognised way of calming a howling baby. Try feeding the baby before you feed yourselves you selfish bastards.

You ruined our meal out, which is a very rare treat for us these days thanks a fucking bunch for that.

so you know the ins and outs of all the implications of those children's diagnoses, and how it affects them in various different situations?

crossposted with zzzzz!

My son has severe sn. The last thing he needs is somewhere with lots of stimulation. This is the reason we avoid typical kiddy places.

In fairness to Lesley, I think she was referring to specific instances where she has seen children behaving badly in restaurants/cafés, and that she knows that those children do not have any special needs recorded on the confidential school list. It is possible that some of these children might have undiagnosed SN, or SN that have not been put on their school records, but I don't see that anyone on here can deny the fact that she has seen badly behaved children who she knows are not on this list at the school.

Thank you SDTG - exactly what I meant

exactly zzzzz.

The issue I had really was with Lesley's deleted post which was basically an eyeroll post about pesky posters bringing up sn, when in fact no-one had said that the children in the op may have had sn.

jeez, now that is just rude, lesley. In what way have zzzzz's posts been smug? By the way you do know that disabled people can go to university!?

Lesley, you must be a sodding expert then... because you have seen a list.

Do you realise that every child with additional needs is different, just as every neurotypical child is?

My two have additional needs and have never really had a problem in restaurants but some children might struggle. Then there are some children whose parents are just not bothering to parent - matters not whether they have additional needs if their parents are shit.

It's just this having an answer for everything that gets my goat.

Whatever I say, you will appear to know more about it than I do.

I expect if I make a remark about my own kids you'll probably claim to know more about them than I do

We know more about additional needs because an awful lot of us are, or have, lived with it every bloody day.

So you all know more about the specific children Lesley is referring to than she does? She works in the school they attend, but there's no way she could know more than you lot do about them?

No. I meant in general.

Also you really don't get to know a child by looking at a diagnosis on a piece of paper.

But you do know that a child who is on that list, has a diagnosed SN, and if you work at the school, you probably know these children better than people on the interwebz who have never met them.

It just bugs me that people who have never met these children are implying that they know them better than Lesley does

But they aren't. They are implying that they have more direct experience of additional needs, most probably because one or more of their children has them.

I don't think anyone is saying that, STDG. But I know that, for example, the staff at the dcs schools who know us, don't necessarily have much of an indepth knowledge of the ins and outs of our lives even if a select few know many of the details of ds's medical history!

The thing is even if Lesley knows 100% that the 'badly behaved children' are just that, and I know some kids are just badly behaved, I personally find it a bit insulting to imply that people bring up sn as some sort of excuse (as per her deleted post).

I don't know where you lot are all living in the Uk but where I am- not posh at all- 99 % of children behave well at whatever restaurant they are in-from MacDonalds upwards. If kids do misbehave they are noticed because they stand out. Saying that I do know one set of parents who practice 'benign neglect' with their child. He used to cause havoc- now he has an ipad. They are self absorbed arseholes.

The worst behaviour of children I have ever seen was in France last year at a zoo. Middle class parents ignored it all. I ended up telling the kids to cut it out in my terrible French it was so bad.

I don't know why people persist in comparing children's behaviour in differing countries - I don't mean specific incidents obvioiusly, but those that say "oh children in this country behaviour much better" or "children in france or Italy (or wherever) are much better behaver."

There are badly behaved children everywhere. There are children with SNs/disabilities everywhere. There are people who are intolerant of children regardless of whether it's bad behaviour or SNs everywhere.

No one area of the world has the cornered market on well behaved or badly behaved children.

True.

I went to Frankie and Benny's yesterday as a pre-X-men treat. All of the children in there were impeccably behaved. One was on a tablet but was sharing what they were doing with their friends/siblings/parents and the tablet was on silent. I didn't bother surveying whether any of them were from different countries or had additional needs though.

I was really hoping for a tale of unruly kids chasing each other under tables...

Yes sure there are badly behaved children everywhere but when you travel a lot, it generally seems to be the case that children in countries like france, spain for example are at least taught how to eat properly and with manners. Probably partly because eating is more of a sociable thing than in the UK and expectations are higher, in the Uk it seems more like 'oh well you cant expect them to sit still/eat nicely/ eat decent food etc their only kids'

I'm amazed at the number of kids who start school unable to use a knife and fork.

Yes let children be children while they are children, but that's talking about letting them play with toys, climb trees, run around outside, make stuff etc rather than sitting in front of a screen all day!

It's not a good excuse to let them eat however they want to! If you want to enjoy eating with your children encourage them to act in a way that's enjoyable to eat with. It's hard slog at the beginning but so worth it. :-)

I don't know why people persist in comparing children's behaviour in differing countries

I think it's a cultural difference, Alice

In my experience, children in certain countries tend to brought up without the indulgent excuses we give as a poster just detailed.

They prove that in fact even very small children are quite able to sit quietly, use a knife and fork, eat what is put in front of them, say thank you and ask to be excused.

That's at home. So when they go out, that's how they behave too. As do all the generations above them.

I have seen this over many decades with families I know in Holland, France, Sweden, Switzerland and Germany.

We tend not to have such a culture of manners in some areas of life here in the UK.

That's why people draw comparisons to other countries. If something is ingrained in a culture (respect for the old, desire to look after guests etc) then it shows in general in its people.

Though many of those same families are aware of the Americanisation of eating and some ate beginning to accept it too.

I don't think that's true. I think that when you travel to another country, you see specific pockets of the culture - perhaps a more touristy area, or perhaps a more culturally elite group, all depending on the area you are staying, the types of restaurants you are choosing and so on.

Americanisation of eating? what precisely are you referring to?

Loads of children in the UK are taught table manners from a very young age. Loads of children in other countries are taught table manners from a very young age.

it's just a ridiculous notion to blanket one country with the label of "children with bad table manners" and another "children with better table manners." It's all based on people's anecdotes and not realistic at all.

It's right up there with those that comment on how another country's lifestyle is so much better than it is in the UK because they've been there on holiday and have seen how much nicer it is. Pfffft. That's not an accurate assessment at all.