Yes parents in restaurant, you were VU!

[Bogeyface]

It was not the waitress's fault that she tripped over your daughter who was running around with your son causing havoc, it was not the waitress's fault that your DD got caught on the arm with a fork that fell off the tray of pots she was carrying, it was yours. If you bothered to look after them instead of texting, talking and watching TV on your phones then it wouldnt have happened.

That was why the manager refused to give you a refund on the 5 meals you had, and I agreed with him when he said that a restaurant is not an appropriate place for a child to be running around. I also agreed with him when he said that if you couldnt keep your children under control then you would not be welcome back. So did everyone else, which is why no one jumped to your defence when you said "No one minds do they?" looking at the other diners.

Oh and btw, occasionally jiggling the buggy while you stuff your face is not a recognised way of calming a howling baby. Try feeding the baby before you feed yourselves you selfish bastards.

You ruined our meal out, which is a very rare treat for us these days thanks a fucking bunch for that.

Alice as I said up thread I was brought up, went to school in and spent many years working in the countries I mentioned and still spend several months a year visiting family and friends in those places.

It's empirical observation, not a tourist snapshot.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear

Americanisation = fast food, eating in front of tv with hands rather than up to table, several different dinners instead if one evening family meal together, snacking and the need to be constantly withinh reach of some kind of drink to suck on.

You DO of course realise that many families in America actually don't live on fast food, don't eat in front of the television, and actually DO use cutlery, right? Talk about falling back on a stereotype. In fact, we were brought up eating one evening meal in a dining room, no television on at all, and often ate on ship (DF was fairly high ranking military officer) with all the different manner of cutlery and had to have impeccable manners or my father would have been humiliated (not to mention REALLY angry with us!). I know tons of people that grew up with the same emphasis on table manners. (that would be those I grew up with in America, by the way)

The table manners of most Americans I know are actually quite good, despite what you may see on television.

I absolutely agree. I too know many cutlery-wielding Americans!

It's more about the rise, around the 80s, of American cultural work practices infiltrating Europe; long hours, pressure not to take holiday, eating at desks, no lunch hours etc that was prevalent then and has eroded the more traditional ways of eating that I and clearly you grew up with.

It is so ubiquitous nowadays that I know people in the UK who are astounded at the idea of leaving the house with children without bags of snacks and gallons of drinks.

It's just not that common in other countries. Though it is rising I grant you.

Interesting debate but I fear we are derailing! Thanks though

Many people take snacks and drinks along in an effort to save money. I do it not only to save money, but because I have DCs with SNs that (due to food issues) don't always do well in restaurants, so because of judgey tutting and comments from other diners (see how I brought that right back around to the OP? ) we sometimes avoid restaurants and have a little picnic somewhere on a bench. Less stressful for the DCs.

I do detest how people in the UK blame American culture for some changes though. I'm afraid I still know many people of a younger generation that have grown up in much the same manner as myself, with the same values and (gasp) table manners instilled in them in the states.

I'm also a bit at the whole American cultural differences "infiltrating" .. you make it sound like an alien invasion. Governments encourage the emulation of these "cultural differences" on a regular basis when they use them to push for longer school hours, older retirement ages, changes in all aspects of our lives. That's been going on for years. Things change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. But I hardly think you can blame "Americanisation" for the UK's state of table manners.

Oh god no, nothing to do with America - our table manners have always been vile in comparison to our superior European neighbours

SirChenjin Have they? Are we the naughty child at the table then?

Though many of those same families are aware of the Americanisation of eating and some ate beginning to accept it too.

Those families referred to being those of the countries listed earlier in that post. They are becoming aware of it. In their countries.

Not British.

Over and out.

It would appear so - some of the posts on this thread have reminded us all of exactly how we are perceived by our more cultured European neighbours

Oh god no, nothing to do with America - our table manners have always been vile in comparison to our superior European neighbours

God, yes!

My middle class mother taught me to eat with both fork and knife at the same time. And we use fish cutlery. :) At the table. Anything else is for Neanderthals.

'I think children learn to behave in restaurants if meals at home are eaten with a bit of decorum and expectations of table manners are spelled out and enforced at home, day in and day out.'

Alice -- I should have clarified I meant NT children. Obv individual children with SN may have different experiences.