to think my upstairs neighbours are taking the utter...

[MoanyOldTiredMum]

Forgive me this is going to be epic and humiliating so have name-changed but I need to unload and get it all out in one and it has probably been moaned about loads before.

Moved in here about 15months ago, big old building (so no soundproofing, wooden floors etc), mostly owner occupier and mostly quite elderly so quiet, look after each other and all happy to have a poorly dc to dote on. Travelled a lot last year so wasn't around every weekend and only noticed occasional gatherings upstairs that got a little loud drunk chatty but generally seemed to be not too intrusive or late. Very quiet over summer then a BIG party followed by lots of DIY type noise leading me to think new owners were in and hopefully all would quiet down after the initial housewarming, settling in and then realising that your neighbours can hear EVERYTHING!

Wrong. Every other weekend, friday night preclub party upstairs, first I know is flat filling up with people from 930pm doesn't stop til after 1am. Then back at 4am crashing about, slamming doors etc. This is on top of 4am noisy taxi deliveries to the front door on thur/sat/sun, (thurs is student night here) so 4 nights per week plus the occasional tues or wed thrown in for good measure. New Year's Eve was the tipping point when I was woken at 530am by someone coming back putting on music for half an hour then turning it off (by which point I was up with dc) then once the bells went and my other neighbours came over for a drink and left about 1am, we all went to bed and upstairs party started at 2am and went on until 530am. I was zombie mum on new year's day, and lots of saturdays after.

There was a leak in my ceiling one feb eve so I had opportunity to meet upstairs neighbour, show her my flat, point to teeny tiny dc wheelchair next to front door and heavily hint that we were being very quiet because dc is asleep. Hoped that would do it. Nope, but had contact details now from girl I met who told me she and her flatmates owned the flat, cut to the following weekend and I texted her at 1am to say my 3yo has now been up for 2 hrs so please turn off music thanks. No answer, music went off then back on quieter a little later, until after 3am. Got a message the next day apologising, she wasn't there and would ask flatmates to keep it down in future. I asked her to please come for coffee (so I can have a civil shut it type chat) and gave a couple of different times, no answer, contact stopped.

So next party I called 101, no one showed. Next party I called 101 and really insisted they come over. They did, twice, because party goers smoking outside saw them coming so when upstairs heard my door go they all went really quiet, then cheered once the noise team left (they had heard the party coming up the street anyway so went around the block and then logged it). When the noise team did go up and ask for the party to move on the students refused on account of they were going out in an hour anyway?!? They did go out an hour later (1am) but not before stamping repeatedly on the floor whilst yelling 'fuck you fuck you' all the way around the flat and into the street, really intimidating. And that was that, just advised to keep logging complaints.

The guy in the flat above theirs is the unofficial factor for the stair and called me about some repairs, whilst talking I find he is also bothered by the noise, though not quite as bad, and the rest of the neighbours in the stair are narked by the front door banging and stair noise etc.

Turns out it is a student flat upstairs from me and the flat is owned by the mother of the girl I met not the people living there, we all think maybe 4 or 5 people live there, which is more in one flat than all the other flats put together. There is no landlord listing or HMO license or anything, not familiar with the rules but it seems they consider themselves exempt. So I get the number for the owner but hesitate in calling because I figure it could go either way since I am calling a mother to complain about her child and I am not good at confrontation, hate it.

Following the noise team intervention the students up the ante by stamping, properly slamming their way about at all hours and frequently waking us all up. After a month of thinking I have no choice but to call owner I realise the plaster on my ceilings is cracked, in every single room and so I make the call.

Spoke to father first, who was mortified, then was called back by mother who was very apologetic, this year's lot of students are a lot younger than last year's phd students; any more parties and they are out etc etc. All good, and she is visitng the following week so will come and see the damage. And the only people who live there are her daughter and two others!

Between that conversation and the next, the tone completely changed and I was hearing noise from another flat perhaps, or they were good students who never went out drinking, I must be thinking of someone else !?! Oh and the party the team were called too was just a little dinner party with one or two guests. The factor guy also tried to have a chat with her and got the same line, total denial. Her answer to my cracked ceilings? Oh well I have seen worse !!!

Anyhoo all was good for a couple of weeks after her visit (which was to oversee floor sandings, she refused to consider carpeting, and also swapping a same size bedroom with a sitting room so that their sitting room is not above a bedroom because their bedroom is carpeted so no compromise whatsoever). I was told to contact owner directly and not council noise team in future.

Then last weekend we had a return to evening stampathons resulting in me texting owner at 10pm sun eve to ask that the students please stop banging around because dc was ill from 4th disturbed night in a row. The phone went upstairs immediately and then all quietened down so I went to sleep and was woken later by her ringing me at almost 1am to say she had just received my text and had spoken to the students and woken them up so ~I must be sensitive to noise and hearing it from another flat ! There were no more visitors or music or anything that could be causing a problem and obviously the students were just walking around and being as quiet as they could, blah blah blah. This went on for a bit with her totally trying to gaslight me into thinking I have a crazy imagination, lucky I was tired or the conversation would have ended very abruptly, as it was I just said mhhmm a lot and got off as soon as I could. She did relent and give me their landline to call them if they are being noisy.

Now this evening guests arrived upstairs at 1130pm, waking dc, and left about 1am when I started banging about flushing loo etc really noisily to make them realise we are awake and fuck the actual fuck off which they did eventually in staged groups, thinking they were being sneaky but the drunk high heels on wooden floors and hysterical laughter outside the front door as they scarpered kind of gives the game away, no ?

I considered calling them but figure there is no point, they have no intention of stopping this and anytime I try to communicate the situation just gets worse and I can't be bothered with being woken up repeatedly whilst they try to get even or whatever it is they are doing.

I will move , (I rent and the flat and other neighbours are lovely), but it won't be immediate and I need a short term solution. I am sure owner told me initially they were finished in june and there would be a new tenant but when I last spoke to her that seemed to change to september and I really don't think she can expect us all to put up with this crap until then, also I fucking object to being called a liar, (as does neighbour two up) because owner has to believe what students say and can't we see that ( no I fucking can't they are overgrown nocturnal teenagers with no morals), AIBU?

And congrats if you made it this far , I feel a bit better now I wrote it all down!

ikea I think you should read further into the noise OP has been subjected too....

Feeling a bit more human after a lovely night's sleep. I guess it shows they can be quiet when they want to be, it just doesn't ever seem to stay that way.

I'd like to point out that last year it was fine but I don't recollect the people who lived there coming and going so late so that is maybe why.

ikea if I wanted to live in an area with a bunch of students above like your db's flat then I could and I would pay less than a third of my current rent. I would be choosing to live in a dormitory by doing so of course! You don't say how big the flat was but 8 people in one place sounds like a lot and unless the whole building was inhabited the same way then totally unfair to the neighbours. I think it is wrong of landlords to pack em in to get higher rent but such is the way of things. I used to live in flats like that as a twenty something myself and the only way for most people to survive once working life began was to get the top floor flat. Only first and second year students who hadn't worked it out yet would stay underneath the other flats because it is the short straw option.

In scotland an HMO application has to be approved by the other residents and there is no HMO license here so that doesn't apply, and I think any owner would be very hard pushed to get one approved. There are HMOs in some buildings around here but the residents are not happy about them and fight every step of the way. When people have spent a lot of money on a property they expect a certain standard of living and are far more likely to pursue that if owner/occupiers than if they are renting.

Stampathon has begun in earnest so am off out, can't say how good it has been to be able to speak about this on here and have your support x

6 people in the flat? Was that a flat with build for grown up 6 people living together? Like 6 bedroomed flat, or a 3 bedroomed one (or perhaps 2 and sitting room used as a bedroom?)

Usually flats are build for families whilst 6 students would cook 6 separate meals, each have mates around etc. Get out of the house at different times. Come back late and start cooking and having baths after midninght.

have read the other noise op is being subjected to and I agree that it is unreasonable to play loud music layer orppurposefully stamp on the floor, absolutely no way that could be seen as reasonable.

My point is that some of the noise dp is complaining about is normal noise. You don't get to choose your neighbours unfortunately so you have to some extent put up with their lifestyle choices, that may be coming home in taxis at 2 in the morning every might or having a noisy child or wearing high heals on wooden flooring.

My brother's apartment was a 2 story apartment with the living room/kitchen and bathroom on the lower floor so there were 4 bedrooms upstairs 2 bedrooms and the communal areas downstairs. It isn't the students fault that they are renting an apartment that is in the same building as family accommodation.

I'm sure a move to the suburbs would offer a quieter option.

The OP made it clear she does not live in a studenty area. How much further out do you want her to move? The suburbs of the Scottish cities I know also contain mostly flats!

Contact the uni. My boyfriend and I are full time undergrads living in private rent flats; we'd be mortified to think we were causing this kind of disturbance, we certainly wouldn't go out of our way to cause even more disturbance. equally we have a baby DD and I'd be furious if we were having to put up with this! contact their uni - some unis will take interest and sort it - and keep contacting the police.

this isn't normal student/young people behaviour. will they be leaving soon for the summer?

Okra you are being ridiculous. Why should the OP move to the suburbs?! Surely the onus is on the landlord to buy an hmo compliant property, and for the students to act like decent human beings?!

But the op is disturbed by taxis outside the house and people walking in the apartment upstairs. You can't decide that your neighbours can't enter their own home between the hours of 11 and 6, they can come and go as they please. I have never heard of people being disturbed by a taxi, sounds very noise sensitive to me.

Do you think she would be as bothered by the taxi arriving, if it didn't signal the start of another music and stamping session? It is all cumulative.
Very common to be disturbed by wooden floors, hence why a lot of people aren't allowed to have them.

I think only an extremely noise sensitive person would wake up to a taxi arriving, if you are that noise sensitive I don't think an old apartment is the right choice of home. I'm sure that there are some modern apartments or small houses in all Scottish cities, especially if the op is paying over the basic price for accommodation I would think there would be at least some options.

Yes but taxis in thus part if the world beep noisily fir ages until passenger stops snogging and gets their backside down the close stairs

Primal Lass - we do indeed have leasehold property in Scotland, although it is not nearly as common as in England. In fact there was an act as recently as 2012 - the Long Leases (Scotland) Act

Tenement flats are a traditional form of living in Scotland, Ikea, and are also found in the suburbs! It's mad to suggest the OP has to move because of these inconsiderate students

I'd so add that students need to realise they are no longer in halls when they decide to pay tent on that pricey beautiful tenement.

There are loads of purpose-built students flats but the well heeled like the lifestyle that a high ceilinged, sash windowed flat brings.

Most people live in tenements with the expectation if noise. You learn. You send a letter round when you have a party. You take your shoes off in flat. You keep children quiet on weekend mornings.

Students brought up in , no doubt, larger detached properties have no flipping idea.

Ikea - 6 grown up people in 4 bedroom flat is not the same as family of 6 in the same flat

families usually have predictable pattern of behaviour, kids go to sleep, grow out of crying etc.

6 individuals would be like 6 separate families (OK, perhaps 4 if 2 were couples) - that is where noise created would be greater in this case. 4 sets of meals cooked, 4 sets of friends invited and so on...

I think only an extremely noise sensitive person would wake up to a taxi arriving,

Unless they beep, phone the landline phone, or ring the intercom.

Primal Lass - we do indeed have leasehold property in Scotland, although it is not nearly as common as in England. In fact there was an act as recently as 2012 - the Long Leases (Scotland) Act

I stand corrected. Have never, ever seen a leasehold flat advertised however.

Actually, does that act not mean that we don't have leaseholds (any more)?

mbmcommercial.co.uk/blogs/property-blog/goodbye-long-leases-the-passing-of-the-long-leases-(scotland)-act-2012/

Hmm, I still think you should contact the Uni. After all, coming and going is one thing ( eg if they were scientists that had timed experiments running) but stamping and FU ing iscanothervthing altogether.

That is just one example of leasehold law in Scotland. And concerns the conversion of ultra long leaseholds into full tenure. I quoted it as it is the most recent addition to the canon of leasehold law in Scotland. Often leases were used in areas where there was a prohibition against subinfeudation, although this could be got around by creating a contract of ground annual. Of course this is now irrelevant since the abolition of feudal tenure (Scotland) act 2000.
Long leases are capable of registration in the land register of Scotland.

Sorry, that didn't answer your question fully - no, the long leases act does not mean that all leases are abolished as it only affects certain types of long leases, mainly those of over 175 years, known as ultra-long. A "long lease" is defined under Scots law as being of at least 20 years duration. All other leases are not affected by the 2012 Act.

It is very common for commercial property to be leased, and for these leases to be registered in the Land Register of Scotland. Long leases of residential property are more unusual, and feature more prominently in the west of Scotland. Provided they meet certain criteria, they too are capable of registration.

OK doke. But unusual in the tenements in the cities?? Have never seen it. What I meant was that blocks of flats tend not to be leasehold the way they are in England.

If its that bad and has been going on for that long, I'm astonished the OP hasn't contacted the HMO Licensing Department at her local council, or Private Landlord Registration Team, since its a criminal offence not to have a license in these circumstances. Or her noise nuisance team at her local Env Health Dept. Landlords and tenants cannot simply declare themselves not to be an HMO, and any complaints against HMOs are normally raised at the next Licensing Authority meeting (usually one every 3 months) where the landlord or agent has to be present and can be forced to answer questions from the complainant (if they wish to turn up in person) or the Council and counsellors, and have their license removed or restricted.

The system now in Scotland is now by far the most regulated and strictest in Europe. I say this as I used to work in an HMO Licensing Dept in a major city and this is what would have happened if the OP had complained. Even the noise nuisance team would have passed on the lack of HMO license to the HMO licensing Dept.

Have you done this OP, and what did they say? The latter's normal procedure is to send round noise monitoring equipment and ask you to keep a log. Have you done this and what was their response? I see they have already been out to see you.

NB the HMO Dept did receive every so often rather ahem spurious complaints from neighbours who had become unreasonably obsessed by their neighbours and complained about things which were perfectly normal. There was one complainant who was eventually interdicted for harassing one of her student neighbours as she complained several times a week about her coming home from work, and the noise (her then shoeless feet) made on the stairs to her own home. The complainant took to keeping her finger pressed on the student neighbour's door buzzer in the mornings for up to 10 minutes at a time. Even so, the HMO Dept still had to deal with her complaints properly.

We actually bought a flat which was a previous HMO - the downstairs neighbour opposed it after she was flooded nine times.

Upthread it was stated that no HMO required if only thre tenants.

I think HMOs might have to be SATs, KatieKaye? And the license terms tend to be standardised by councils providing their own style leases.