to think that MN is not a good place to get relationship advice?

[InForAFlaming]

I've name changed for this as I am so obviously going to get flamed.
I've had a couple of threads on the relationship boards, as well as reading quite a lot. I've been really concerned and appalled about how quick people are to denounce someones relationship as doomed and suggest they leave, especially as there are children involved. I realize many of the people giving advice have been in very difficult or abusive situations, and I don't want to undermine the importance of these experiences, but there does seem to be a very quick assumption that everyone's husband is like this, therefore LTB.
When people post, you can only get a very vague sense of what's going on (I'm excluding the obviously awful ones where someone is being hurt or taken advantage of blatantly), and you only hear one side of the story. So how can people be so adamant in their advice?
In reality:
Good people (men and women) do bad things sometimes.
In the lifetime of a marriage/relationship most people (men and women) will at some point say something hurtful, behave unreasonably for a period of time, other things which are not nice.
And I get the impression that on MN all men are supposed to be angels all of the time, as well as being patient and understanding when women are less than angelic due to pregnancy, motherhood, work related stress etc.
Am I on my own here?

Yes, exactly that Whistle

All are free to post about their likes/dislikes in a relationship

But they should be free to post without being accused of 'trying to appear cool', just because their relationships are different to others IYSWIM?

It's just childish to dismiss them in that way, instead of accepting that people are different.

I have to say that in all the years I've been on MN, there have been maybe 4 or 5 threads with a strong "LTB" vibe where I've been reading and thinking "WTF?! CALM DOWN. It's not that bad!"

I do get the point about projecting and reading between the lines but as far as I can recall, a lot of the time the predictions of OW are spot on and OP subsequently confirms it.

I left an abusive relationship after 9 months thanks to MN. I never posted about it but I lurked on Relationships and read thread after thread after thread by women whose relationships had started exactly like mine and got progressively worse and worse. I put up with/rationalised sexual abuse, financial abuse and verbal abuse and then pulled the plug. There is absolutely no way I'd have seen what was happening without the Relationships regulars.

So you see, even without ever telling me to LTB, they got me to LTB. They're unstoppable ;)

It's just childish to dismiss them in that way, instead of accepting that people are different

IMO it's also childish to refer to the other end of the spectrum as "LTB," instead of accepting that people are different.

I think the advice on the relathioship threads is generally very good.

I wish I'd had Mumsnet when I was in my 20s and was in several bad relathionships. I woudl have left a lot sooner or maybe even had the brains not to get into them in the first place

I read the relationship thread as it does give a window into the fairly impenetrable dynamic of other peoples relationships, and it does make me think about my own, and be more grateful for it. Where I see it work well is for women who are in genuinely shitty positions, who are confused and unhappy, and posters can do a really good job of helping them see through the murk. Where I think it works less well is when posters come on to have a bit of a whinge, and everyday relationship stuff gets blown up to EA and LTB within a page or two, and if the poster then back tracks a bit gets flamed. Either way it seems to work. OP either recognises there is a problem, or from the over reaction recognises there really isn't. There will prob be a few women in genuinely shitty positions who remain in denial, even after pages of good advice. Mumsnet can't really be blamed for this.

I laugh a bit when I see a house chore squabble suddenly turn to divorce worthy material. MN is good at turning mountains into molehills. Not doing dishes suddenly means that DH is a vile, lazy, abusive man who doesn't really love the OP...and there's obviously an OW. Most things could easily be solved with a heart to heart, or a little extra patience.

Me and DH have been very happy together for quite some time now. There's things we both do that if we posted a thread on a bad day that would have a thread full of LTB's. We have some shit days, but mostly we have wonderful days. I think if we read as deeply as MN does into each and every little annoyance we caused each other we'd be divorced by now.

Everyone is with an imperfect partner, there will be things about them that drive you nuts. You will never find a perfect partner that doesn't annoy you from time to time. It's up to you to decide if leaving the plate on the table is a deal breaker or not. I drive DH nuts leaving dishes and wrappers on the table. He drives me nuts by not charging his cell phone. A lot of trouble and frustration is saved by him just taking 2 minutes to clear the dishes for me and me just plugging his phone in for him at night. But they're not signs of disrespect, and they don't mean we love each other any less, and it would be a shame to throw out an entire marriage because we're upset about taking a few extra minutes to cover each other's slack.

I also see the advice of LTB being thrown around a lot and for some reason no matter what the situation the man is said to be abusive or malipulative so you must LTB now!

But on saying that I know a lot of good advice is given too.

It does seem very strange to me when people come onto threads and say "Oh but MY DP kicks me in the head every night and I love it! Just relax OP, maybe his family had a different way of expressing love!"

Surely the only reason people post on Relationships is because they are unhappy and think their relationship is shit. In which case telling them that they're just wrong is pointless at best and destructive at worst.

And the trope of "LTB" being aggressively put forward as the answer on every thread is such a fucking crock of shit. "Could he be depressed?" is a much more common response to the regular threads about door-punching, heavy-drinking, weed-smoking, child-slapping men.

PrincessBC - people whose DH's leave a plate on the table and don't mind, (like yourself), don't usually post on relationships looking for advice...?

It can be a lifeline for some

And one that is good and gets a women and her children out of an abusive relationship

The advice to LTB is never doled out unless people think you should actually leave the bastard

However I would agree to an extent when people talk about a realtionship problem and get met with leave the buggar when all that has happened is a temporary fallout

PrincessBC - people whose DH's leave a plate on the table and don't mind, (like yourself), don't usually post on relationships looking for advice...?

Yes, but that's what I'm saying there are days that we do mind and get into squabbles about it. If I posted a thread on one of those days to vent, I'd get a thread full of MNer's blowing it out of proportion.

But.. there are some cases where a poster complains about dishes and it turns out he's also coming home drunk every night and that's why he's not clearing them.

Sometimes the responses are the same to both situations. Not always, but sometimes. There's some threads where I wonder if they couldn't just talk it out and figure out a better chore schedule instead of getting so worked up.

YANBU

It's not called Projection City for nothing

Its a shame, because if it weren't so ridiculous, more people could use it for relationship advice. No one who knows the boards would go there.

MN is great for situations in which a spouse is being brainwashed and manipulated. It provides a force for good in this scenario where the spouse feels the strength and support to leave and to receive an overwhelming view which helps tips the balance for them to feel some sort of autonomy and independence, rather than continuing to believe what the spouse tells them. Also having people on MN with a knowledge of what the "clichés" are, like "the script," is great.

However, in situations where a DP or a DH has waded a little into the pool of questionaibility (eg texted/FB'd someone else in a vaguely flirtatious way) I think it is a huge, huge leap to tell the OP to LTB.

I have known women and men who have been in relationships and been very unhappy (both with themselves, feeling inadequate in life, or because of behaviour from their partner) and it has triggered them to seek attention elsewhere, by opening conversations with exes on FB or whatever. Often it is "acting out," about another issue. It is a weak thing to do - yes - but I don't think its irreversible if their feelings for their spouse are still intact...

I really appreciated my own personal mumsnet (before mumsnet existed) telling me that it was ok to LTB. YABU.

I think the key bit of the OP is this: So how can people be so adamant? Fair enough to suggest things might be catastrophic and so LTB is essential. But to insist on it? over and over again?

I think part of the problem is that the readers of a post will only ever see one side.

In circumstances of dv then really, only one side is needed but other than that, relationships are complex and nuanced.

Most people only post to canvas opinion, there's no obligation to act on any advice given.

But Princess what if you don't have the confidence to leave, or your self confidence and self worth is at a level where you think this is as good as it gets. What if you think that any man is better than no man? I think sometimes the blinkers need taking off, no matter why they are there.

And I agree with Japanesemargaret - I have lovely men in my life and I don't think all men are bastards at all!

I'm like a born again LTBer now. Having reaped the benefits myself I'm a bit quick to leap in with a LTB as I've seen how much better my life is now.

I suppose I should be a bit less trigger happy as I know not everyone gets the happy ever after, some people are left devastated and struggling to come to terms with separation.

I am shocked at the situations in relationships, that some other posters excuse. These are not minor things.

A woman may also come on the board and post about a simple annoyance, but much more comes out on the thread that shows the relationship is awful. Some posters only read the OP and the first few comments, then skip to the end. They are the ones who say things like, why are you telling her to leave her DH when all he does is not load the dishwasher. Sometimes RTFT is good advice.

A vociferous minority use mn to enact their own projections,anxieties and detritus
As enacted by LTB and the strident change the locks/kick him out/pack a bag
When in fact its much more complicated but a sassy yo sista retort is whats given

Yes, that's it, the vociferous minority act out their own issues, over and over again, regardless of the interests of the OP. Weirdly it never makes them feel better though. I suppose they'd have to own their own stuff before they could stop projecting.

I read some threads on relationships and, in all honesty, am so profoundly shocked by what goes on in some relationships, and what some women put up with, that I actually just leave the thread.

It is so far from my own realm of comprehension, that I don't feel I can contribute at all.

If I did, it wouldn't be a mere 'leave the bastard'. Instead, it would be to tell the OP to run as fast her legs can possibly carry her, and never look back. But I don't. I just don't say anything.

I can't be the only one who does this.

Likewise, I'm not the only one who's had only nice men in my life, and believes other women deserve nice men, too.

I absolutely refute the idea that women are being told to LTB on the basis of something as inconsequential as a plate left on the table. And in any case, if that is happening, so what...? Just ignore those people. No-one is actually going to leave their bastard for slap-happy plate-clearing-away, just because some random person on the Internet told them to, so who cares?

Again, I get the very real sense that the LTB mentality is deeply threatening to some, and this thread doesn't go any way towards dissuading me from that.

Likewise, I'm not the only one who's had only nice men in my life, and believes other women deserve nice men, too.

I have only dated and been with good men too. I can't say I've ever had a man treat me poorly (that I didn't toss on the spot).

But then there's some threads where a guy does something irritating, then you find out he has some MH issues and the thread is still having a go at him without keeping that in mind.

There's other threads where it turns to a feminist debate and now that OP's relationship is representative of womankind. When really, sometimes the woman as a submissive housewife works (as long as both are happy and respectful).

Sometimes I see threads where if the gender was reversed, the OP would be burned at the stake, but instead the OP is actually supported and the man is bashed.

It's not that LBT is threatening, it's that I feel like instead of being told how lazy and horrible their partner is, which isn't always the most helpful, they could be told some communication techniques or be given links to things like love languages. Stuff like that.

Yes, there are some cases that make my jaw fall to the floor and I cannot fathom how some women put up with that bullshit. But, I'd venture to say a good portion of the time, there's a lot of snap judgement made about a relationship where the partner is from the get go cast in a bad light because the OP was frustrated at the time. Instead of being given helpful advice about maybe communicating, being direct, etc.. they're told DP is lazy or abusive, and they go away thinking the thread is ridiculous, they won't leave him over it, but also no reasonable suggestions have really been given either so nothing improves. That's my gripe with the knee jerk LTB's and man bashing on the threads. It's a shut up or leave mentality that's most unhelpful for relationships that should and could be salvaged with a bit of work.

I've been on mumsnet for almost ten years now, and this thread and variations on it get posted regularly. In my opinion the relationships board has not changed very much at all over that time. People come and go, but there are always supportive people who are ready to give their time and share their experiences, and there are always people who are in terrible places.

Like JapaneseMargaret I've been far more shocked at what some people have ended up with, and the complete shittiness of some partners than by the comments anyone has had in response. Occasionally I've thought that the suggestions of abuse have been a bit much, and then I've read on a bit and lo and behold the poor OP was indeed in an abusive relationship and very much did need support to escape.

My relationship woes mostly happened before I used the site for anything very serious and so I didn't post about what was going on in my life. If I had I expect the responses would have been very similar to those I got in real life, which were mostly LTB. I think my response would have been exactly the same, I took the advice I thought was useful and acted on it, and pretty much ignored the rest. It was still good to hear a range of opinions.

Yes, that's it, the vociferous minority act out their own issues, over and over again, regardless of the interests of the OP. Weirdly it never makes them feel better though. I suppose they'd have to own their own stuff before they could stop projecting.

CheckerdyHorse, imagining agendas on the part of posters, imagining that you know how they feel, how they'd be better to manage themselves more effectively. Reads like a classic piece of projection on your part to me.

Pot. Kettle.