to think there could be as many neglected children in childcare as there are elderly people in care homes?

[choplouey]

I have three preschool children and a 7 and 9 yr old. I've worked in nurseries on and off since leaving university and obviously have been to a wealth of parks, soft play areas, toddler groups, childrens centres and so on in my nine years as a parent.

Before I get slated - this is not an attack on working mums or childcarers. I recognise that there are many people who want/have to work and many fantastic childcarers. However...

While working in nurseries (I've worked in 12) I've seen children plonked down as soon as their parent leaves and left crying, fussed over for 5 mins so they're happy before they return, an untrue record kept of food and nappies for non-verbal children, children told to shut up, upset children ignored in corners for great lengths of time and so on.

Last week I went to soft play and there was a childminder there. She sat on her phone for the entire time, despite two of her mindees hitting/being hit/crying. Today I went to toddler group and a childminder was working with her sister. One child was around 18 months and wailed the entire time. One kept asking 'what's wrong with you?' every ten mins, the other just plonked her down with toys and told her to stop being stupid.

Another mindee was dropped off by her mum and the childminder was all over her tickling and chasing her while mum was there. Literally the minute she left the childminder sat down, the little girl started crying and the childminder ignored her. Her sister rolled her eyes and said to her 'it's no wonder your mum's don't want you if you're both such miserable little cows!' and they laughed

The children this morning looked so hopeless and helpless and I left feeling furious that the childminder will tell their parents what a lovely day they've had and so sick at the thought of how crap she treats them at home if it's that poorly in public.

Aibu to feel this way and sad for how many parents are given misinformation?

That's excellent Longtall and thankfully is the case in the vast vast majority of childminders.
For a start, it's a lot easier to care for happy children so why would we be cruel to them. At it's most basic level it would just make our lives harder.
If you want a well behaved child, first make them happy ( or something along those lines!)

I think there is often a misconception about childminders because there are people who call themselves childminders, when they are not qualified/Ofsted registered/insured. I know one of these and I wince when she explains to people she's a childminder, she isn't. She's working illegally and being paid cash in hand.

I once wrote a complaint to one of those Take a Break style mags. the title on the front said " childminder murdered my baby" turned out the "childminder" was the mum's new druggy boyfriend who babysat for her.
They never issued an apology/ explanation though so there's another few thousand people with a poor impressin of cm's

As a childminder (pre DC) I know a lot of childminders. I have also done EYFS work in some nurseries and this is why I decided to be a SAHM. I would never let anyone look after my children. No one on the planet will love and care for your child like you will and this is why I cannot let anyone else do this job for me.

Well, adsy, I've worked on early yra s since 1992 and I've never worked with a 16 year old, so its not my experience that all nurseries use them.
16 year olds cannot be left alone they must be supervised and cannot be included on the ratios
We have students on placements but they font work for us
We don't use assistants either- everyone has a childcare qualification
And I take my paperwork home too and do it on my dinner hour

Personally I would never use a nursery. I know a lot of people who have worked at them and I have never, ever met a nursery worker who couldn't 'tell you some things'. Not abuse, but not the standard of care I'd want to risk.

I also think that the numerous people on here going on about 'dropping in unexpectedly' are talking absolute rubbish. Every nursery I've been in has some sort of entry system - a buzzer, a receptionist, a locked door. So either a) You really are breezing right in unannounced, and having a true indication of what it's like - which means it's bloody insecure and dangerous. Or b) You're 'dropping in' by ringing that buzzer, knocking the locked door, waiting to be admitted. You just as well be waving a flag as you approach and shouting 'I'm on my way!'...hardly unannounced.

So either a) You really are breezing right in unannounced, and having a true indication of what it's like - which means it's bloody insecure and dangerous. Or b) You're 'dropping in' by ringing that buzzer, knocking the locked door, waiting to be admitted. You just as well be waving a flag as you approach and shouting 'I'm on my way!'...hardly unannounced.

Or you have a nursery like my DDs where the door is locked and you need the code to get into it, but you are not prevented from entering said code at any time and walking to your child's room, with it's glass door where you can see right in. There's no waiting and it's not insecure. Any concerns about security and the code changes that minute. I have dropped in unexpectedly several times. DD has always been happy and well cared for.

Of course cruelty is inexcusable.

I am a nursery user (full days 3 days a week for the last 6 years) and have always been happy with it.

I do not actually expect my children to be interacted with at all times. I do not do this myself at home and I certainly wouldn't do it at a playgroup. I expect my children to develop the ability to explore and play independently and with each other. I think this thread conjures up images of staff trying to deal with 3 simultaneously crying children but actually the kids are surrounded by exciting activities and spend a good deal of time asleep when young. I expect my nursery (and would expect a childminder if I chose one) to provide fun activities, food, singing, stories and comfort when required. I don't expect them to interact one on one with my children all day. And for the childminder here who said they can step back a bit at playgroups, you have my full understanding. I did exactly the same thing when I took my own children to playgroups.

I'm another who is very happy with the nursery we chose. It's rated good, the staff are highly educated (at least two in each room have degrees in Early Years) and passionate about what they do. DD is tremendously happy and talks endlessly of her days and what she has seen, heard and done.

In fact, I think the first person I'd hear of any neglect from would be DD - she certainly tells me when she's been told off (which staff have usually already mentioned to me), if there's been an incident with another child or if she didn't eat her lunch.

My cm looks after a child with behavioural problems who's mum drops her off at cm at every opportunity. She gets more attention at the cm than she would at home.

Hmmm she sounds professional to divulge all of that about another family's circumstances, slag off her paying clients and big herself up at the same time.

I think your bringing up a very good point op and I think in any setting where people cannot properly express themselves and are vulnerable one has to take ultra caution and care.

There are differences between having a little relax at a play group but keeping your eye on the child....and literally dumping the child in there.

I saw one little girl who wasn't speaking, was shy cautious always looking to her nanny for reassurance but Nanny head was always buried in the phone. I always felt sorry for this child but the funny thing is I thought it was her mum not Nanny. After about 6 months the little girl came in with another lady who I thought was the mum, as she was also, taking a step back but always knew where the child was, when the child looked for her, she was there, smiling, and communicating with the child, and had a real connection with her, one day I worked up to say about the other lady..and it turned out both were nannies and the other was let go over something not child care related.

The difference in the child, having that communication was astonishing, she was soon speaking and confidently walking off. It must be so isolating for a small child to be in sort of silence all day....

Anyway, as someone said back up thread, whats worrying is how easy it is to hide poor care.

I agree the saving grace here is the children do get to go home, any adverse marks should be noticed, nappy rash and so on.

But its the low level care, and I suppose leaving small children isolated without proper support thats worrying.

What I do know, its vital is that people be allowed and encouraged to speak out about any abuse or low level care anywhere.

People who are disclosing what they have seen must be allowed to speak.

The way they are spoken to on here, makes me think, is it any wonder they dont want this in RL.

All these posts banging on about "working mums".

This should be "working parents" surely?

Although using "working parents" instead of "working mums" wouldn't have the same impact would it

I second the sentiment that children don't need to be played with all day. What SAHM can honestly say they play with their children every minute from 8am to 6pm?? So nursery nurses do paperwork during the day... so what? Obviously if they're ignoring children crying then that's one thing, but letting children get on with playing - what's wrong with that?

This thread is so depressing. Doesn't matter how many people come on and say they're happy with their nursery/CM, there are the smug SAHMs waiting in the wings to tell them they're wrong and actually their nursery is probably a hotbed of unattended crying children with unchanged nappies - at best! Actually, if they've done their research, regularly drop in during the day (the nursery we use also has a code on the door) and the children are happy and developing, the nursery is probably - shock horror - doing the right thing.

Out there are a lot of parents (DH and me included) who have no choice but to work and no family nearby to step in with the free childcare that so many people seem to receive (and then complain about on here!) We have to work. So we have to leave children with either a nursery, CM or nanny. We chose nursery because we didn't want someone working alone with them. We've been really happy with the nursery we chose. Of course the industry needs to be regulated better and I don't deny that. Of course there are nurseries under performing which need scrutiny. But sitting in the luxurious lofty position of not having to work and telling everyone that does that their child is probably being neglected is pretty low.

And I echo what plenty of others have said. Those posters who say they've worked in nurseries and seen what's gone on and said nothing - you should be ashamed of yourself for not doing anything. You're part of the problem.

Oh and also when I take my children to soft play / the park, I will always read. Am I supposed to sit there staring at them?

But Pass, can you not see its your sort of attitude that sounds defensive and aggressive and is not encouraging people to speak out is it?

You sound like you think your under attack. As fas as I am aware, op has said she thinks abuse may be more wide spread that we generally think, after all these old people home revelations.

That is all.

Lots of people have witnessed CM not looking after children how they would like their child looked after in playgroup type settings. Not really abuse though is it? Those who are saying report what exactly do you say, "um, hello OFSTED, I watched a CM at playgroup having a coffee and not playing play doh today."

I think there are two arguments here. Actual abuse as per the OP and low level ignoring. Not abuse but not ideal for most parents.

My two pennies worth. If I am paying a CM 50 odd quid a day I expect them to interact their arses off with my child. It's their job and thus nothing like a mum at playgroup with their own child. They are being paid for it and should treat it as such.

loveSardines

I think working mums say working mums because they may be sp or their oh might leave the decision on cc to them.
I wonder how many dads visit numerous nureseries and schools before deciding on the righht one.

Pass the creme eggs

So what do you suggest somebody does who knows a nursery is particularly bad? Maybe because they worked there in the past, heard rumours etc, tell the parent/ your friend.
I can tell you the response but you'll find it low and to me its the greatest problem.
Responses range from I leave them there because I have to, no you don't there are plenty of others.
My child is happy there, goes in smiling and comes out smiling. Oh, that's ok then.
We looked and did some research, fine you're happy.
It's closest to work. Oh, it doesn't matter how bad it is then if its convenient.
I know this because I have tried to make suggestions or drop hints to people.

I've worked in a council run nursery/children's centre in north London and I would send my dcs there in a heartbeat.

The children were all happy and well looked after by people who loved kids.

I remember once the owner was doing the rounds and asked why a child was crying, worker replied oh she's just being silly, owner went mad took her aside and said don't you ever call a child silly! So, totally different to what's being described here! That's just one though.

YANBU :(

I wouldn't be happy with a code entry system at all tbh. So a forgetful mum or dad writes it down, drops it...or gives it to their sister for an agreed pick up, someone sees the code being entered etc. I wouldn't be happy knowing that a 4 digit code allows just anyone to waltz in.

The other thing I don't personally like about nurseries is you don't know, and have no control over who is actually looking after your child. It's all very well that the nursery is rated outstanding...but you're handing over the responsibility of who will actually be in charge of your child to a third party. Staff change, they move to better paid jobs, they take a job, any job, if they need one.

My sister did work experience at age 15 in a nursery and after three days was being left with babies, alone, 'just one minute when I nip to the toilet' or 'let me just change X's nappy, I won't be long'. If there are extra bodies there, they'll be used and I don't for one second believe that every young person they have in on experience or training is supervised for every second of the day.

rabbit She didnt divulge. I know the family, as do others. There is bound to be defensiveness, the amount of people on this thread who have said self righteously "Oh I would never let anyone else look after my child" " Id never use a childminder/nursery/ nanny" Well bully for you that you can do that. Some can't. Most people don't dump their children in the nearest childcare setting without a second glance. They do as much research as they can. The vast majority of children are fine. This thread makes it sound like a child that hasn't been damaged by childcare is a rarity!

Those posters who say they've worked in nurseries and seen what's gone on and said nothing - you should be ashamed of yourself for not doing anything.
Seen bad practice, reported it, lost job. Did supply for a large chain with lovely whistle-blower policy last year, reported it, now banned from all their nurseries.

It should be pointed out that there is a big difference in nurseries being illegally bad, and just being not very good:
A big chain nursery I was in yesterday has started using 'blue roll' (large heavy duty undimpled kitchen roll type stuff) to wipe bottoms with at change times as it's cheaper than buying soft cleansing baby wipes. Illegal or just poor?

The nursery I was in today, another major chain, is taking steps to cut back on the frequency of nappy changes in order to save money. Illegal or poor?

Another nursery I work in makes absolutely sure all the children get a balanced lunch. They also make sure the children all receive exactly a child sized portion and no more. This means that if a child doesn't eat every single thing on their plate, they won't be full. Illegal or poor?

A nursery I was in the other day had a lot of CBA (can't be arsed) staff. Illegal or poor? One shouted out "Somebody find me another job!" in the middle of the toddler/pre-school room mid-morning.

Tomorrow's nursery has a member of staff who sits on the toddler room floor and ignores the children...

If poor quality shut nurseries, over half would have to close straight away.

Morethan - I don't really get what you're trying to say. If people leave children in a bad nursery knowingly because it's close to work then that's their problem. If children go in happy and come out happy, chances are they're happy!

You say that you've tried to drop hints etc people. Why aren't you direct with them if you know something negative about a setting their children attend?

Bornfree - posters who post here regaling horror stories about nurseries and CMs, anonymously and with no specific details, are not "speaking out" in the sense of anything useful coming of it.

Bridge - I really don't expect (or want) my children to be interacted with all day. Children need time to develop their own imaginations through self directed play. Otherwise how will they ever know how to play without an adult?

I read those posts to mean, this is how I feel about it, this is my yard stick, I wouldn't put my own children there - thats how strongly I feel about it.