to think there could be as many neglected children in childcare as there are elderly people in care homes?

[choplouey]

I have three preschool children and a 7 and 9 yr old. I've worked in nurseries on and off since leaving university and obviously have been to a wealth of parks, soft play areas, toddler groups, childrens centres and so on in my nine years as a parent.

Before I get slated - this is not an attack on working mums or childcarers. I recognise that there are many people who want/have to work and many fantastic childcarers. However...

While working in nurseries (I've worked in 12) I've seen children plonked down as soon as their parent leaves and left crying, fussed over for 5 mins so they're happy before they return, an untrue record kept of food and nappies for non-verbal children, children told to shut up, upset children ignored in corners for great lengths of time and so on.

Last week I went to soft play and there was a childminder there. She sat on her phone for the entire time, despite two of her mindees hitting/being hit/crying. Today I went to toddler group and a childminder was working with her sister. One child was around 18 months and wailed the entire time. One kept asking 'what's wrong with you?' every ten mins, the other just plonked her down with toys and told her to stop being stupid.

Another mindee was dropped off by her mum and the childminder was all over her tickling and chasing her while mum was there. Literally the minute she left the childminder sat down, the little girl started crying and the childminder ignored her. Her sister rolled her eyes and said to her 'it's no wonder your mum's don't want you if you're both such miserable little cows!' and they laughed

The children this morning looked so hopeless and helpless and I left feeling furious that the childminder will tell their parents what a lovely day they've had and so sick at the thought of how crap she treats them at home if it's that poorly in public.

Aibu to feel this way and sad for how many parents are given misinformation?

In fact I am sure there are crap childminders out there, but there are plenty of fantastic ones too. I know if I treated children as badly as described on here I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.
Insancerre you are right that it isn't compulsory. I and most of the childminders I know are qualified to level 3 or above, not sure how many are qualified countrywide. A piece of paper showing a qualification is not the only indicator of a good childcarer though.

The trouble with cameras is for cmswe work in our own homes. Often with our own children around. Sometimes all day, sometimes just after school . I use the whole of my house for cm'ing and would not want my ds being filmed getting undressed inhis room or indeed myself being filmed doing something like picking my nose when kids are asleep at lunchtime.
Its just too much of a huge invasion of privacy in what is also a family home.

oh, I get you
But I meant an actual qualification, that you have to study for, where you have to demonstrate you have the knowledge and skills and have to have done so many 100s of hours practical experience.
and nurseries don't use 16 year olds, as they can't be counted in numbers,
see i have read the EYFS

So all nursery assistants have studied for hundreds of hours before setting foot ina nursery? Rubbish!

I think shrs saying allcms are cackling old witches with no qualifications, experience or compassion

Before choosing childcare for DD, we went to the local toddler group also frequented by some local CM. Those CM didn't really engage with the children in their care. That put me off using a CM and was a really poor advert for their services.

I am sure that poor care is a problem in some nurseries, but we haven't had significant problems with the ones that DD has gone to. I work hard to ensure that I am positively engaged with the nursery and the nursery staff. I think that helps to get the best care for your child and it is easier to resolve issues from the basis of a good relationship.

Another parent who was very happy with the whole nursery experience - I used to pick up at different times, knew the staff very well, and several now babysit and are friends on facebook.

I never had any cause for concern. Happy children, professional setup, and staff who clearly loved the children.

cold, I don't really know, just whiling away a bit of time I think
and adsy, I didn't say that
im not cmbashing, just expressing an opinion
probably a reaction to being called pig ignorant by someone who called me immature

Coldlightofday- thanks for talking sense.

We're all agreed that we should aim for the best possible care all round. Just because our own children are fine, doesn't mean we should ignore the plight of other people, whether its the elderly in rubbish care homes, neglected children or whatever.

But the introduction of the word 'guilt' is so interesting isn't it? What the hell has guilt got to do with it? I sometimes think there's a very small unpleasant faction on MN who actually would quite like other parents to feel guilty.

Sorry, not playing. We all know our own children and their environments the best. Like I say, I am fortunate that I had access to excellent childcare... If I hadn't done it would have been a great shame because my children wouldn't have had such an enriching experience, and also my career would be down the pan!!

I suppose it's similar with schools too... Just because we are fortunate that our children go to good ones, we shouldn't ignore the fact that there are some very poor ones around too

Re. Soft play and toddler groups. Some people have said there is a lack of engagement by cms thete.
I have my mindees for aminimum 10 hours a day. For 2 hours a day 3 times a week we go to toddler group and they gooff to play. They know where I am and check in frequently asdo I watch from a distance. Butno, I dont follow them round playing with them. I do that forthe other 8 or 9 hours a day.
They are more than happy to be let off the leash in what I know tobe a secure environment

So, if that is the only time you saw me you migjt think I give my mindees little attention which is far from the truth

I know someone who was a childminder while her DC were young.

She was fabulous. I met her often at toddler groups and she often dipped out of conversations to see to her charges. She always struck me as being very caring.

Lucky really, as I didn't realise her 'real' career is that of school teacher until her youngest started school.

She now teaches my DS and I know he is in safe hands.

At toddler groups ialways have to tellpeople that I am listening to them but imnot looking atthem as I like to keep an eye onmindees. If you werent talking to me iwould look luke I was just chatting and ignoring the children
Does this explain a few things to thecm bashers?

I think a lot of parents forget that whist their children are at a childcare setting they are being parented by somebody else.
They seem to believe that their dc are being supervised whilst playing, bum wiped, fed etc and this is it.
but putting somebody elsein the place of the parent in loco parentis takes a lot of consideration and research.
Yes, some parents do this, but the ones that don't will have no idea what is going on when they aren't there.
Surprise drop ins aren't much good either, as if the cc worker is behaving badly, they are hardly going to continue once the parent is there.
It has to be about expectancies as well. Some people would never settle for their dc being cared for and parented by another. Other people don't see it like this and are happy to leave their dc in a cc setting.
They are opinions that nobody can argue with, because we all have different ones.

Undercover reporting at nurseries has happened in the past, such as in 2004 (BBC) and in 2013 (Dispatches Ch4).

Having temped (such as covering for one or two days) in nurseries, I can say that many nurseries are fine, some are excellent. The best two in my area were both small (less than 30 children) nurseries.

In all areas of work there will be good people and not so good. There can be good organisations to work for, and not so good ones. Good managers and not so good ones.

Those of you who have observed neglectful care from childminders or in nurseries and did nothing about it should be thoroughly fucking ashamed of yourselves.
Leaving your child is hard enough without reading stuff like this. Thanks for the extra added guilt trip!

"Some people would never settle for their dc being cared for and parented by another."

Settle?!

What a luxury to use the term 'settle'

If every single parent took that stance and stayed home with their children, what would actually happen nationally? Internationally even if every single mum or dad decided not to work when their kids were small?

Would that mean an end to the tax credits system? I have often wondered what would actually happen.

Or if we did not live in a country that paid for people to be able to stay home, if there was no such system, I wonder if childcare facilities would be much improved as more people would need them and the voice would be louder in demanding better settings?

Just thinking aloud really I think and how lucky you are if you are well off enough to not have to "settle" if you don't wish to work.

don't worry, ellebelly, the vast majority of us are decent caring people.
For the real cm bashers amongst you, why the hell would we chose to work such long hours for such little pay and so much bloody hard work if we didn't like the children. there are far easier ways to make a living than having your house taken over as a nursery . There's no clocking off for us and going home. our lives are taken over by it.
many many people leave cm'ing as it's all too much for them. and fair enough, you have to really really want to do it, or you WILL give it up.
the ones that are left tend to be the ones that really enjoy it so don't mind ( mostly) it taking over their home/ life / family relationships/ dc's after school activities/ holiday.
we tend to treat the mindees as one of the family. If you choose to see us as harridans somehow in it for the money then you are denying yourselves one of the best forms of childcare for small children.
pisses me off, it really does.

ElleBelly

Why is it somebody elses job to report when they themselves could lose their job?
People who leave their dc in an unsuitable setting should be thoroughly fucking ashamed of themselves. Why should somebody else do YOUR job for you. If you can't see a setting is unsuitable or a particular cc worker not up to it, then you have more to worry about than somebody not reporting.

potatoprints the whole point of this thread is people saying cm's and nurseries basically abuse children emotionally and physically secretly/
how would a parent know it was an unsuitable setting?
when they look round a nursery do you think the owner tells them, yes, we leave the babies to scream by themselves, we don't change shitty nappies etc.
It IS up to the people who work in poor settings to report them.

Thank you adsy. We used a lovely childminder for my daughter, and now I'm back at work my son goes to a nursery we are very happy with. He's settled in well, goes in with a smile and is always crawling about playing happily when I pick him up.
Of course I could be easily fooled and it's all a front, but we did lots of research, visits, and spoke with lots of other parents, I'm not exactly sure what else we could do to make sure we chose somewhere where the care provided is of a good standard.
What do you expect people to do for childcare OP, I don't go to fucking work out of choice!

Any situation where poorly paid / qualified staff with no sense of vocation are left to care for demanding, non-verbal people is massively open to abuse. I think that's just how it is sadly

YANBU sadly

I know a few people who work in nurseries and they are all pretty negative about them and say they 'feel sorry' for full time babies.

My older daughter went to a great one so there are good ones out there but I think these are a minority (genuine staff who care for children, mature staff, low turnover, lovely homely feel).

I know 3 excellent childminders that I would trust with my DC. However I know about 10 very bad ones. These ones tend to go around together having coffee together at toddler groups and they often leave mindees outside/in the car etc. And there is very little interaction between them and mindees and they tend to take on as many as possible. It is very sad.

What it comes down to is that looking after DC is a paid job for CM/CC and not the loving relationship between family and DC. Loving parents/grannies interacting with DC is just much better than a paid carer in general and paid care will never match that.

The not very good CM I know got good ofsteds, they mean little.