To think that pregnant women don't trump everybody else for a seat on the tube?

[dancersdad]

I possibly need some perspective. DW and I were in London today, and unavoidably had to travel on the tube this evening in commuter rush hour. DW has a number of health issues that aren't physically visible, but definitely do impact upon her ability to stand on a crowded tube. When we got on at the start of our journey back the tube was packed with no free seats, so we both stood and I held onto DW as I was worried she was going to fall. The carriage was made up almost entirely of commuters. Two stops into our journey an elderly man got off leaving one of the priority seats free- the only free seat in the carriage. DW went to take the seat and was almost knocked onto the floor by a heavily pregnant woman who tried to slide into the seat alongside DW and beat her to it, as it was DW was already in the seat and the other woman stood up. She then told DW she was so sorry to ask her to move, but she was in a priority seat and as she was sure she knew, priority seats are reserved for those who really need them. DW told her that she had a reason for needing the priority seat too and refused to move when asked again. Cue a whole string of abuse about how no one has any manners nowadays, that she had asked DW to give up her seat for her because as a woman she would expect DW to understand that pregnancy can be hell, the least she could do would be to let her have the seat etc. I stepped in at this point and explained that DW really did need the seat, and loudly suggested to the rest of the carriage that I was sure someone else would be willing to give up a seat for her. Suddenly everyone else was deeply engrossed in their ipads, kindles etc, except for an elderly lady in the other priority seat who clearly needed it too, and offered her seat. The pregnant woman announced loudly that she couldn't possibly ask someone else who needed the seat to give it up, and it was a shame that some people (glaring at DW) had no respect for the priority system, which is in place to ensure those who really need a seat can get one. I pointed out again that DW had a genuine need for the seat too. Cue huffing, eye rolling, and lurching over DW whenever the train changed speed for the rest of her journey.

AIBU to think that although some pregnant women do need a seat on a tube, they shouldn't assume automatic priority over others also in need? There's no priority seat ranking system I don't know about?

Pregnant women do not need a seat because they are frail, though some are. They need a seat to protect them from falling, for which they are more at risk, and for whom the consequences can be devastating.

People here have disagreed with the importance of this risk in the situation and that is fine, or felt the risk of breaking bones is as serious - fine. But it is frustrating for it not be be acknowledged as part of the reasoning - as though it were simply a head to head competition for who feels worse standing. It's not.

Sorry - that pp was in large part directed at broken and others who are saying 'by the same logic, the pregnant woman etc etc'.

I have to laugh at the accusation of misandry stated above. Here we have nearly 800 posts, many many of them slating a pregnant woman for the reasons stated by a man, without any comment from the pregnant woman on her take on the situation. Posters on the thread have then launched into a tirade of abusive from calling her rude, to an idiot, stupid, an unfit mother etc etc, and yet the thread hates men?

The sisterhood needs a good look at itself. The fact is, that those with a disability and those who are pregnant need a seat, but if mumsnet can't see that pregnant women are more vulnerable than non pregnant women then we might as well ask to shut this site down now.

Just in case it helps to hear what happened from a different point of view. I have only read the last couple of pages so apologies if I miss anything crucial.

LydiaWickam no, I haven't ever been pregnant. However, I can completely understand why pregnant women would want a seat on a train. I really don't think it's justifiable to suggest it would have been mine and my husband's fault had the woman miscarried.

beyondrepair of course all the problems with London transport can be blamed on one pregnant woman. But instead of politely asking me for the seat she tried to knock me off it completely and then told me I "had" to give it up for her as it was a priority seat and pregnant women counted as priority. She then became hysterical when I said I also needed to use a priority seat. It did not turn into an issue because we both had a reason to use the seat, it turned into an issue because she expected me to give up my seat and threw a hissy fit when I didn't. I didn't really want to tell her about my surgery and still don't see why I should have. I lived in London for several years and am perfectly aware of what the tube can be like. For that reason we only used it because it was unavoidable.

If I have said anything that was insensitive I do apologise.

If I ever was going to go to London with DS, I wouldn't use the tube. He wouldn't cope.

Is there a way to avoid the tube, what options are available during rush hour using public transport.

DW is also a member of the sisterhood, surely? And a vulnerable one at that.

Pregnant women do not need a seat because they are frail

In the later stages of my second pregnancy I felt frail if I stood for any period of time, that is beyond uncomfortable and very faint.

Thankfully I never had to experience the tube I get claustrophobia anyway, and breathless, so it may not have been pretty me on the tube..

• Here we have nearly 800 posts, many many of them slating a pregnant woman for the reasons stated by a man, without any comment from the pregnant woman on her take on the situation. Posters on the thread have then launched into a tirade of abusive from calling her rude, to an idiot, stupid, an unfit mother etc etc, and yet the thread hates men?

I know, its utter maddness.

Having said that I have in general noticed lots of vitriol towards women who are pregnant or struggling with little ones out and about.

Beyond I actually said

Pregnant women do not need a seat because they are frail, though some are.

BumpNGrind... Sisterhood is about ALL women is it not? If you remove the OP from the equation altogether this is about a pregnant woman and a woman with hidden disabilities. Not a game of top trumps.

There's certainly no sisterhood that I can see, just a thread of women full of entitlement and a refusal to see beyond their own agendas.

In a post that was aimed at justifying all pregnant women's right to a seat

You have no idea how that pregnant woman felt. She could have all sorts of problems, SPD or something like that. She could be in a lot of pain herself. Also the risk of her fulling is very high. You or your wife should have asked someone else for a seat if your DW needed one so badly.

Well. I'm sorry you're not well. It must be awful. And that you had a shit journey and that you were upset by the pregnant woman on the tube. The tube is no fun at the best of times.

I still don't accept she thought her pregnancy made her more deserving than someone who was seriously ill. Because she really appears not to have had any idea that you were unwell. And I think there is a world of difference between having a hissy fit and unleashing a string of abuse.

And I think it's crap that nobody else offered either of you a seat given you must appear so frail and she must appear so heavily pregnant.
But I still dislike the general feel behind a thead started about a pregnant woman getting upset about not having a seat.

Jaded you have indeed misinterpreted my post, if you read it again I say clearly that both pregnant women and disabled people are entitled to a priority seat. However, despite this fact, the pregnant woman has been called all sorts of named. The language that some women use to describe another woman is worrying.

That's the point isn't it. OP DID know his wife's limitations. Nobody but the pregnant woman knew her own. It was her responsibility to find a seat. I've always given up my seat for people who need it, I don't need to quiz them on why they want it. If they need it they can have it.

The priority seats are for disabled people as well as pregnant and elderly aren't they? So what did OP's wife do that was wrong - she got to a seat first and she needed it.

It's baffling that some posters can't see beyond their outrage that there was no empty seat available for a pregnant woman.

Welcome dancersdadswife
I hope you have your boxing gloves ready

But would it have been ok for a woman to start a thread about a pregnant woman not getting a seat? I ask because I've seen such threads and they didn't turn out like this.

then told me I "had" to give it up for her as it was a priority seat and pregnant women counted as priority

YES BECAUSE IT is a priority seat!

We are talking about someone who has a valid need for that seat!

A seat which as a pregnant womens logo on it due to issues with no one offering pregnant women seats, an issue LU have tried to redress by sticking a great big logo on the seat.

threw a hissy fit when I didn't A hissy fit, nice, so just a little child tantruming for no reason, rather than a very pregnant lady upset and needing a seat and just not at that split second realising that YOU, had issues.

Issues which you didn't care to expand on. Because you had and still have no sympathy for this woman at all.

You seem so unable to extend the tiniest modicum of understanding her way, you just cant believe that some one dared to throw a hissy fit at you on the tube.

It astounds me you cant just let it go and think:" poor lady, it wasn't personal, she wasn't to know I HAVE ISSUES, SHE WASNT TO KNOW THAT, she must have to deal with loads of tossers in priority seats and not giving them up, the poor lady just did not realise this time, that actually I did have a need for the seat!"

rooty yes I know I was just pointing out that no one knows who is going to be or feel frail in pregnancy. Like ops issues, the pregnant lady may have had issues.

The fact she became hysterical makes me feel even more sorry for her.

It's baffling that some posters can't see beyond their outrage that there was no empty seat available for a pregnant woman.

I'm not outraged - hopefully none of my posts has read that way. But I do think it makes perfect sense to answer the OP and DW on the question what they should have done, since that's who is here asking. Of course there is a better alternative situation. But that's not the one they found themselves in.

The fact she became hysterical makes me feel even more sorry for her.

Yy.

Glad we're still pals Beyond

I still don't accept she thought her pregnancy made her more deserving than someone who was seriously ill. Because she really appears not to have had any idea that you were unwell

^ yes.

But I still dislike the general feel behind a thead started about a pregnant woman getting upset about not having a seat

^ yes.

Its really fucking mean.

Dizzy I was sat on the seat first, she tried to knock me off it. She only failed because there are armrests either side of the seats. She then told me I had to move because it was a priority seat, gestured to her baby on board badge and told me she had priority. I told her I also had a need for a priority seat and she told me I was rude and selfish and she would have thought that as a woman I would understand pregnant women need seats on trains. Lots of gesturing to her badge and ranting about how the badges were there so pregnant women got the seats they deserved etc. Apparently I was the cherry on top of her shitty day and should be ashamed of myself. Given I was already sat on the seat when she tried to knock me off it, I think it was her who needed to find herself another seat.

No, I don't know how she felt. But I do know how I felt, and I know it was either that seat or the floor. The floor would have been bloody painful.

Or, quite likely, she threw a tantrum because she was tired and stressed and upset and now feels bad about it.

The only issue here is not who is more deserving of a priority seat, but to actually be polite and understanding towards people in a vulnerable position regardless of whether they are obviously disabled/ill/pregnant. Do we really want to live in a society where people are questioned over their need to sit for a tube journey? Can't we just accept that some people need to for whatever reason and that sometimes, during the rush hour for example, some people might not automatically get a seat and might need to ask....and if someone asks you, then give them the benefit of the doubt and stand.

For most of us who work (or have worked) in London (or any other city with this form of transport) then it is not a surprise that sometimes you have to stand.

The pregnant woman in the OP, was not travelling on the Orient Express to Venice, getting onto a plush carriage, with few passengers and deliberately and bloody mindedly choosing OPs wife seat for no reason.

The pregnant lady was doing the tube dash for a seat...a priority seat mean't for pregnant women - amongst others....a seat which I imagine is usually taken by people with no need.