To think that pregnant women don't trump everybody else for a seat on the tube?

[dancersdad]

I possibly need some perspective. DW and I were in London today, and unavoidably had to travel on the tube this evening in commuter rush hour. DW has a number of health issues that aren't physically visible, but definitely do impact upon her ability to stand on a crowded tube. When we got on at the start of our journey back the tube was packed with no free seats, so we both stood and I held onto DW as I was worried she was going to fall. The carriage was made up almost entirely of commuters. Two stops into our journey an elderly man got off leaving one of the priority seats free- the only free seat in the carriage. DW went to take the seat and was almost knocked onto the floor by a heavily pregnant woman who tried to slide into the seat alongside DW and beat her to it, as it was DW was already in the seat and the other woman stood up. She then told DW she was so sorry to ask her to move, but she was in a priority seat and as she was sure she knew, priority seats are reserved for those who really need them. DW told her that she had a reason for needing the priority seat too and refused to move when asked again. Cue a whole string of abuse about how no one has any manners nowadays, that she had asked DW to give up her seat for her because as a woman she would expect DW to understand that pregnancy can be hell, the least she could do would be to let her have the seat etc. I stepped in at this point and explained that DW really did need the seat, and loudly suggested to the rest of the carriage that I was sure someone else would be willing to give up a seat for her. Suddenly everyone else was deeply engrossed in their ipads, kindles etc, except for an elderly lady in the other priority seat who clearly needed it too, and offered her seat. The pregnant woman announced loudly that she couldn't possibly ask someone else who needed the seat to give it up, and it was a shame that some people (glaring at DW) had no respect for the priority system, which is in place to ensure those who really need a seat can get one. I pointed out again that DW had a genuine need for the seat too. Cue huffing, eye rolling, and lurching over DW whenever the train changed speed for the rest of her journey.

AIBU to think that although some pregnant women do need a seat on a tube, they shouldn't assume automatic priority over others also in need? There's no priority seat ranking system I don't know about?

And many other people who disagree may with you might also be disabled but just not disclosing it. Like me.
Both parties had a need. Pregnant woman thought hers was greater.
Maybe OP was with DW because her health meant she was unable to travel by herself? And that they had no choice but to use public transport to get to and from their medical appointment?
By same logic as yours, would you really say that if pregnant woman needed a seat and could not guarantee one, then maybe she shouldn't be using the tube?
Pregnancy is not a reason to try to demand the seat when another user has at least an equal need.

The troubling thing for me (and others, i see) is that nobody in the carriage (apart from the conveniently located "elderly lady" ) relinquished their seat for a heavily pregnant woman. Or, indeed, for a woman, who from your description, must have appeared fragile and in need of a seat. I'd like to believe it wouldn't happen often, but I know from experience that it does. Every day.

I don't think the pregnant woman should have harangued your DW but I'm afraid I'm still not convinced by the "string of abuse" comment and I still don't accept that she thought being pregnant "trumps everyone else".
And I think it's worth remembering that anyone on the tube might have had or claimed to have a "need" for the seat- minefield.
Public transport in London is a shitter. And it's a shame that our poor transport system and some rude commuters, lacking respect for pregnant, elderly and otherwise struggling fellow passengers leads to a gladiatorial pitting of ailments/ virtues / needs between a pregnant woman and an unwell woman.
so YAbu for taking up my time on a Saturday

Katie I don't mind in the least you disagreeing with me, I'm just trying to represent my views accurately.

I have said very clearly that my view that the DH's wife should have been in a taxi is not about the argument over who deserves the seat more (that to me is decided by the risk to a pregnant woman of falling), but out of concern, based on his later description of her.

It doesn't surprise me at all that only the elderly lady offered her seat. As someone else has said, the people who need a seat themselves tend to be more sensitive to others who need a seat. The pregnant woman wasn't sensitive about it because her condition is short and temporary.

leads to a gladiatorial pitting of ailments/ virtues / needs between a pregnant woman and an unwell woman

Its convoluted and short sighted.

Yes.

I'd give up my seat to an elderly person or a visibly pregnant female.
It's just basic manners.

rooty - but if you think, based on need of a seat, the ill lady "should have been in a taxi" then surely the logic same applies to the pregnant woman who you think is in huge danger every time she uses a tube and does not get a seat because of the danger of falling?

And as said many times before, what if OP could not afford a taxi to go to the medical appointment and therefore was with his wife to assist her (and in this case protect her from what sounds like a rather aggressive commuter)? Presumably they judged it was important for DW to go to the appointment, just as the pregnant woman judged it was important for her to use the tube? It's pretty crap to have to travel on crowded transport after abdominal surgery (which always rates as a major operation because of the invasive nature and generally takes a fair period of time to recover from) but needs must. Been there, done that because I didn't have an option.

Let's not forget said pg woman not only had her own self to think of but the protection on her unborn child.She was also alone,maybe had things to carry.

Said woman in question had her dh.

Nope, not unreasonable. They probably both needed a seat, but I am beyond losing patience with people who make assumptions about things they can't see. Someone recently had a very thinly-veiled crack at me for not helping them with their baggage, when the doctor had strictly forbidden me to lift anything remotely heavy for pretty serious reasons (any more injury and surgery and lack of work is a likely outcome). I should not have to explain the ins and outs of my medical situation to all and sundry on a fucking bus.

I'm shocked at the number of posters who have implied that if your wife has a disability she should either travel outside of rush hour, declare her disability loudly do that others can judge why she needs a seat, or should take a taxi.

Talk about out of sight, out of mind.

Shock horror disabled people have a right to travel as and when they wish and don't have to be banished for the convenience of able-bodied people.

Op was arguing for his wife, Pregnant lady was arguing for herself and her baby.

Honestly, have none of you , fit and healthy ever been so jolted on the tube you have stumbled or knocked into people? I have many many times!

Someone recently had a very thinly-veiled crack at me for not helping them with their baggage, when the doctor had strictly forbidden me to lift anything remotely heavy for pretty serious reasons

But what are people expected to do? After my section I had an incident because someone didn't realise but how are they supposed too? They didn't have x ray eyes to bore into my abdomen.

A reli has massive issues walking but is determined to do it...it pretty fucking obvious from the speed, the limp,the look of agony on the face he is having troubles....with no stick or aid...people push past, huff and puff if stuck behind..there is no sympathy....My goodness, if he uses a crutch people steer clear, give pleasant sympathetic smiles...and are much nicer....

FYI priority seat cards now exist:

www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/accessibility/priority-seat-card/

www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr473566c35ce741002908fe3f6fa99b.aspx

For what it's worth, I think this is a great idea. Too much ignorance around.

Remember, a disabled person rarely has a choice in becoming disabled.

No, they're not supposed to know necessarily, but they shouldn't always assume the worst either. One could always ask, I guess.

But I don't think that Katie. I think that the OP's wife sounds particularly frail and vulnerable and the journey should have been avoided. I really don't know how else to put it, I'm sorry. Your needs must argument is well and good but... do women who've just had a baby get on a rush hour tube? Do people after operations? people with broken legs? If you accept not, and that there are good reasons, then you accept there has to be a cut off point where you say, this is just too much for me. Based on my reading of the OP's description of DW, that is what I think. Of course I don't know her.... but I'm saying to the OP it should have been a consideration. The journey sounds like a misjudgement to me. I do not think that everyone who has greater need of a seat should not be on public transport.

My argument re the seat is that the pregnant woman should always get it due to risk of a fall to the unborn child. So it has nothing to do with my opinion of whether DW should have been on the tube. Again, I don't know how to make it any clearer.

Anyway I'm just repeating myself, I'm frustrated because I don't think you're ascribing the correct argument to what I'm saying, but I should probably stop banging on!

Well to be frank, if pregnant woman was having such a tough time, wouldn't she have been better off getting a taxi?

No risk involved there.

Sorry, but I think YWBU. No, being pregnant doesn't trump anyone else's entitlement to a priority seat, but neither does having recently had surgery. If taking the tube is really that big of an issue for your DW, and this was a one-off specifically for a medical appointment, perhaps you should have taken a taxi, where she would have been guaranteed a comfortable seat with no confrontation.

You are banging on about invisible disability, but you don't actually know that the pregnant woman didn't have other complications that made it even more difficult for her to stand than just being heavily pregnant (which on its own, does entitle her to the seat).

You and the pregnant woman were also both being unreasonable for bickering over one priority seat instead of directly asking other passengers for a seat. A simple "excuse me, my wife has just had surgery, would you mind if she sat down" would likely have done the trick. People are tired and often zone out when they are commuting, so may not have been aware of the situation, especially if it was a very crowded train.

Also, not sure how old your wife is, but FWIW, when I was commuting into London during my first pregnancy, I often found middle-aged women the least accommodating of everyone. If that was the case for the pregnant woman, she was probably venting her overall frustration on your DW, which is also unreasonable - but just like she didn't know all of your wife's circumstances, you didn't know hers.

I am genuinely surprised about the attitude towards pregnancy on here. Both women had a claim to the seat but clearly the DW chose not to ask for a seat. The OP was also clearly having a go at the pregnant woman, who may have also had an additional reason for needing a seat. The carriage was full of people who wouldn't give up their own seats, clearly no one is a winner here.

I wonder if we would have the same vociferous defence of keeping your seat if the pregnant woman had sat down first, or if indeed another disabled person asked the DW for her seat?

Pregnancy isn't a disability in and of itself

What is shocking is that not one other person on that train would give up their seat for a heavily pregnant woman, apart from an elderly lady! this.

Same thing happened to me once, heavily pregnant and the only person left to stand by a bunch of male suits. One got up, I took the seat, Very elderly lady got on at the next stop, I gave her the seat and stood, none of them having bestirred themselves.

However, in the interests of fairness I should say it was the only time I wasn't offered a seat on the tube or given one when I asked through three pregnancies. And that people with disabilities obviously trump pregnant women. So do elderly people IMO.

Alis, no it's not, but it is a defined reason on the priority seat notification as to who is defined as priority.

Yes and generally speaking, in most people's minds, disability takes higher priority over pregnancy. One being a choice and a temporary one, the other being neither generally speaking

Schnitzel? Do all disabled people obviously trump pregnant women? I'm partially sighted, do I trump the need of a heavily pregnant woman?

I am not talking about all disabled people, of which I am one. I am saying that as the OP describes his wife, in this situation, out of concern for her, that I wouldn't put her / myself through that because she sounds terrible unwell! It's not just about having a seat. It's about escalators, steps, walking. Two weeks after abdominal surgery. I wouldn't have got on the tube two weeks after my vaginal birth. I am simply expressing the opinion to the OP that she sounds too unwell for rushing about on the tube and in future I would plan differently. If a pregnant friend were talking to me about the difficulties she had travelling on the tube during rush hour I would suggest to her that she travelled at a different time (as I also suggested to the OP), arranged to work from home as much as possible - whatever.

This is a perfectly reasonable way to negotiate life and we all do it, all the time

It's not up to anyone else to decide whether OPs wife or the rude woman should have been on the train or not.

They are adults capable of making their own choices and they both have as much right to be on public transport as anyone else.

There is a cut off point where people would be better off on private rather than public transport, but that is for the individual concerned to decide, no one else.

If the risk to the unborn child is that great, then it's up to its mother to make the choice whether to use public transport or not. By choosing pubic transport, she also chooses to take the risk that she might not get a seat, because she is not the only pregnant person in the world, nor is she the only person entitled to priority seating. There is always the risk that she will have to stand, and if that's a risk that she's prepared to take, then that is her choice, and her responsibility.

The risk to one person, unborn, pregnant, disabled, is not more important than the risk to someone else whether they be unborn, pregnant, or disabled.

Where the need is equal, as we can only assume it was in this case as we don't have full medical history for either rude woman or ops wife, then whoever is there first gets it. Because both knowingly took the risk that they might have to stand.