To have really upset DH and now he's scared to touch me.

[brotherhoodofspam]

Have NC for this as DH knows my username. Am looking for a bit of perspective. DH has tendency to grab a boob/my bum when I'm not expecting and I've always found it pretty annoying but have tended to swat him away but never really said how unappealing and unsexy I find it. Came to a head at weekend. I was coming down with throat infection and was telling him I was feeling shivery and unwell and he said - "is that why your nipples are big?" and proceeded to grab them. I told him I didn't appreciate being groped particularly when feeling unwell. He got really upset and there followed long "discussion"about this and other aspects of our sex life, or lack of it as he sees it (once or twice a week usually - sometimes more sometimes less). Anyway he's been really quiet since then and this morning I found out he's still really upset. Says I made him feel like a sex offender and doesn't know how to touch me / initiate sex now. I think I've really knocked his confidence. I apologised for using the very loaded word "grope" and explained that it was just the last straw when I was trying to tell him I was unwell, but I don't really know how to make things right with him. He's a great DH and we love each other++ and maybe I was stupid to try after 18 years of marriage to be honest about something that really is a bit of a turn off. So WIBU to tell him what I thought? Do other people object to this kind of thing? Have I been spending to much time on MN and getting daft ideas that speaking your mind is a good idea? And any suggestions for how I make this right with him?

Hully especially when it was just nonsense.

Men don't want to have sex all of the time, not all men, they just don't. That's as sensible as saying no woman wants to have sex ever. In fact, I am wasting the little tips of my fingers typing this, I'm going to stop.

They do Corporate. It's biology. But the sensitive ones restrain themselves.

Are you all being mean to the menz again?

I love menz, just so long as they are sensitive and control their wild primal biologically destined mananas

Poor menz They just want to grope boobs in peace. With impunity.

Hi Matildasquared.

Bit harsh, but fair comment from your perspective I guess. Not sure if you're just trolling me, but I would like to say a couple of things about it in response.

Firstly I wasn't being self congratulatory, and it's a little hurtful to read really. I'm by no means a relationship expert, ask my gf, but I thought it was important that I share what I thought was the norm in order to establish my position relative to the subject of this thread. I advocate a caring approach, and try to be unselfish. That's not self congratulatory. That's just my perspective, told by examples of recent experience.

And of course if you quote me out of context you are going to make me look like a dick, so I'll quote myself properly:

"Many men I know are led by their instincts. If we like someone we want to touch them. That doesn't mean we should."

You missed off the important last bit, so not that ridiculous really.

And yes, many men I know are led by their instincts, or (to qualify more accurately so that you can't be intentionally obtuse about the point I was making) let their actions be instinct driven. Many don't. I don't think everyone is led by their instinct but rather their intellect, and to say so is a glib generalisation that doesn't take into account the massive and complex variety of personality and relationship interactions we're discussing here.

You wrote "I'm really not interested in another "But men have needs, dear" lecture."

Well that's not really what I was saying was it. You seem to have entirely missed the point of my post, and seem to think I was defending him in some way. Quite the opposite.

In case anyone else is labouring under the misapprehension that I think a). unwanted contact and b). manipulation through sulking are OK, I don't.

Having read further comments since, I think the dude in question may just have made the mistake of thinking that's what's good for him is good for her, and reacted as I imagine I might if I'm told something I've been doing and been allowed to do for a long time is wrong. I'd probly sulk a bit too, so I stand corrected on that count.

Ultimately i don't (can't) know what it's like to be the people who this thread centres around, was just suggesting possibilities is all.

:)

I hate menz. Men can be different, but menz are always misogynists.

The boobz are there just for the menz... Evo-psych says so. Without evo-psych, where would we be? Wimmen having bodily integrity?!

Wow, thanks for explaining that men are not led by their instincts but that they let their actions be instinct-driven! That myth is one of the cornerstones of the kind of misogynist nonsense that the OP is experiencing. (That's why you're finding yourself derided here.)

Also, have a look at what you wrote: "It's not okay! But he may have just made a mistake...I'd probably sulk too..."

There are absolute reams of writing out there on this topic. Instead of barging into a discussion in order to provide everyone with a lecture on men have a thirty-second google around misogynist myths relating to women's bodily integrity.

And no, I'm not going to provide links for you. I just can't be dealing with people pretending not to understand basic concepts of misogyny/feminism. There's no excuse.

Well, to be fair to Pianist, I doubt that 'misogynist myths' and 'bodily integrity' were the first phrases to his mind as he pondered the issue.

Whether or not you speak the language of social scientists, Pianist, you are aware it's rude to grab at bits of other people's bodies whenever you feel like it. So rude, in fact, it's illegal. That's bodily integrity for you: everybody has the right to decide what happens to their own body.

You do seem to have a little trouble with the fact that this applies even when the grabee is a woman, and even when she is your partner. Girlfriends have bodily integrity too! Who knew?! In extension of that, said grabee pushing you away is a clear indication she doesn't want to be grabbed. Misogynist myths: Women love it really (being assaulted) and Women don't know what they want (until a man forces her to take it.)

Obviously, repeatedly pushing the grabber away means she doesn't like being grabbed. It's not necessary to deliver a carefully-honed speech on the matter ... well, it was for OP and that's the problem!

Have you heard the correct definition of consent in a sexual context? Ongoing, enthusiastic consent. I'm sure you've experienced some of that in your time :) Apply it to all of your sexual interactions, please! Because women are people, too.

That was womansplaining, by the way. You're welcome.

I'd probably sulk too...

Well then you'd probably get called a cunt on the internet, too.

I love these dudes who come on here (inevitably somebody's boyfriend), to enlighten us, as of they speak on behalf of all men.

They speak on behalf of themselves. At a push, themselves and their like-minded mates.

They do not speak on behalf of mankind.

It wouldn't even OCCUR to me to think that I could state, 'women think X about Y', because I don't have personal insight into what women think.

So the fact that some men both feel that they can speak on behalf of their entire gender, and that we will unquestioningly lap it up is ... amusing.

It's the very definition of mansplaining.

SP, you need to understand one thing. We don't care what you think.

I differ with AF on this one.

I am interested to hear what you think, any opinion can be interesting, it's your manner that's at fault and raising the hackles.

YANBU at all op. The "being scared to touch you" is making it all about him and guilting you in to allowing it. My DH used to come up behind me as I was washing the dishes or cooking and start kissing my shoulders and groping my boobs and fanny. I told him multiple times to stop (I have been sexually abused in the past which he knows). He would do the "I can't even touch my own wife" blah blah blah whilst looking all hurt that I'd "rejected" him. One time he said I made him feel like a sex offender so I pointed out that would be because he was one, just because I'm married to him doesn't give him the right to grope me whenever he feels like it. I hated having my back to him incase he did it, it felt likeca sexual attack to me not something a loving husband does.
He did see my point of view, apologised and no longer does it.
There's a massive difference between being cuddled up and one thing leading to another to someone just grabbing you when you're in the middle of doing something else.
It shows a complete lack of respect and consideration. I'd have left DH if he hadn't stopped.

Does anyone else get the "I don't realise I'm doing it" line?

I can't find a good response to that one. I'd appreciate suggestions.

Cinnabar, how about "Do you do it to people at work/on the Tube/in the coffee shop then?"

I should explain that it's not groping with DH - it's feathery stroking.

Now, I do absolutely appreciate that feathery stroking isn't sexual assault - but I hate it and have clearly articulated that to DH many times.

I think next time I will just calmly get up from the sofa and move to the arm chair.

And DH will act all hurt. And probably sigh.

He does do it to the DSs when they come for cuddles, BTW. They don't seem to mind.

Oh God, the hurting and sighing. It's so manipulative.

Done to make you feel in the wrong. And not behave that way again.

Humans are so flawed. Why are so many of us, so awful to the ones we love?

I think it's often about awkwardness, about not feeling comfortable with an open approach because it makes the approacher vulnerable. Easier to do a faux-jokey grab than be emotionally open.

Still an awful lot of people who are emotionally repressed and unable to articulate verbally or physically with intimate honesty.

and reacted as I imagine I might if I'm told something I've been doing and been allowed to do for a long time is wrong. I'd probly sulk a bit too, so I stand corrected on that count

He hasn't been allowed to do it for a long time. He's just refused to respect her body, then punished her for finally calling him out on it in such a way that he's out of excuses.

You don't stand corrected. The fact that you were a like-minded misogynist was crystal clear from your first post.

Men like to touch? So do women. We're not an alien species.

But unless you grope your gf in front of your mother, in a church, in front of a group of school children etc (you get the drift) you can control it you just don't want to because, ultimately your needs come before hers. Your want of sexual gratification is paramount.

*not YOU necessarily, just making the point

Cinnabar, unwanted touching is unwanted touching.

Again, he probably doesn't do it to someone he sits next to on