To have really upset DH and now he's scared to touch me.

[brotherhoodofspam]

Have NC for this as DH knows my username. Am looking for a bit of perspective. DH has tendency to grab a boob/my bum when I'm not expecting and I've always found it pretty annoying but have tended to swat him away but never really said how unappealing and unsexy I find it. Came to a head at weekend. I was coming down with throat infection and was telling him I was feeling shivery and unwell and he said - "is that why your nipples are big?" and proceeded to grab them. I told him I didn't appreciate being groped particularly when feeling unwell. He got really upset and there followed long "discussion"about this and other aspects of our sex life, or lack of it as he sees it (once or twice a week usually - sometimes more sometimes less). Anyway he's been really quiet since then and this morning I found out he's still really upset. Says I made him feel like a sex offender and doesn't know how to touch me / initiate sex now. I think I've really knocked his confidence. I apologised for using the very loaded word "grope" and explained that it was just the last straw when I was trying to tell him I was unwell, but I don't really know how to make things right with him. He's a great DH and we love each other++ and maybe I was stupid to try after 18 years of marriage to be honest about something that really is a bit of a turn off. So WIBU to tell him what I thought? Do other people object to this kind of thing? Have I been spending to much time on MN and getting daft ideas that speaking your mind is a good idea? And any suggestions for how I make this right with him?

Oh FGS.

I didn't say ALL men did I?

Not all women are capable of reading facial expressions either.

But the point stands. Men and women are perfectly capable of communicating with each other using verbal and non verbal cues. Of course there are a tiny minority who can't - people on the autistic spectrum, people in the 2% like your DH.

Are we going to argue that most men are in the 2%? Because I'm no mathematician, but the figures don't add up.

In addition, the OP has given her DH more than facial cues. She's swatted his hand away on each occasion that he has inflicted his gross behaviour on her. She has not indicated that her DH has any communication disorder that would prevent him from understanding what that means.

I wish women would stop making excuses for the deliberate bad behaviour some men (like the OP's husband) go in for.

Also I agree that a good relationship needs good communication.

Men are as responsible for good communication as women are and good communication is as much about listening, engaging to what the other person is communicating to you, as it is about telling the other person what you want.

The OP has been telling her DH what she wants for 18 years. He's deliberately not heard her, because he doesn't want to.

Unless of course, she comes back and tells us that he has a communication disorder that he either only just got diagnosed, but he knew about and never felt that he needed to take any steps to develop strategies to function in an adult relationship in spite of the known communication difficulty.

My post is a general response, not aimed specifically at you, Basil.

Swatting someone's hand away is non-verbal. And if the dh communicates his likes in a vigorous physical manner, then a vigorous physical response could be misinterpreted as positive.

Just as has happened to a PP, early in our relationship dh did something in public that I disliked intensely. It was exactly what FIL does to MIL, and she accepts it. I, OTOH, did not, and I told dh so - clearly, verbally and specifically. He stopped. I'm sure he was doing it because it was how he had learned that a man shows affection - and possibly possession, too - to his wife. His ignorance, my communication.

All too familiar to me.

Yes but it wasn't just your communication was it SixImpossible? It was his as well - he "heard" your communication, he acknowledged what you were communicating.

Sorry I know I'm being crotchety, I just think it's really not right that women are encouraged to always give men the benefit of the doubt about these things. Of course there are a tiny minority who might have difficulty reading non verbal cues, but that's what they are - a tiny minority. The rest of them read cues just fine, they choose to ignore them.

If men had as much trouble with communication as women believe they do, how on earth do they manage to function in the workplace? How comes they're not constantly pissing off their colleagues, misunderstanding what their boss wants them to do, not being able to read body language, atmosphere's etc. in meetings, not being able to show proper sensitivity and awareness at times of stress, problems etc. at work?

If your partner has trouble communicating with everyone else, then fine he has communication difficulties. But if in fact he does fine at work and doesn't annoy the boss and his colleagues, has friends, and gets on reasonably fine with family, then the issue is not communication.

It is hard to face, but the reality is he knows what you want/or don't want to happen, he just doesnt care enough to listen to you or take any notice of it.

I personally think a lot of women put up with far too much rubbish, just to maintain a relationship.

Ice been with my lovely, caring DH for thirty years and he can still get it wrong sometimes and I'm sure I do too. He probably saw the 'groping' as something playful and didn't realise how unpleasant you found it. I actually don't think that's a biggie .

However, his sulking about being called on it would piss me right off. It's really childish and a bit pathetic. I wouldn't apologise to him.

What about getting him to read this thread? He will then see how very, very reasonable you have been.

You've waited 18 years to tell him you find the groping a turn off?

It took me 5 minutes!

What you just need to say to him is you are sorry for saying something in a way that upset him, but that grabbing and squeezing tender bits of your anatomy is not a turn on, ever! Try grabbing his testicles (hard) and ask him if he is turned on.

Explain that he's more likely to get the intimacy he craves by cuddling and tenderness.

He's not alone, most men seem to have this urge to grope. He just needs to be educated to respect you and your body.

AiryFairy - If you kept touching your Husband in a certain way, and he kept swatting your hand away physically in an annoyed manner, would you think continuing to touch him in that way is just playful?

"He's not alone, most men seem to have this urge to grope. He just needs to be educated to respect you and your body."

So most men don't respect women and their bodies? Actually that is probably true. But why would you want to be with someone who doesn't respect you or your body?

Nearly every morning two dull male colleagues bond over football or some other trivial sport. The more junior one chooses his moment carefully, when the irascible old more senior one, has a little break in his work and is relaxed and open to social conversation. He doesn't start talking about football or the rugby or whatever it is, when the guy's in the middle of analysing figures, or constructing a report, he knows exactly when the window of informal networking is available to him. If he didn't, he'd get short shrift and his networking would not be networking, it would be interruption. He knows this. Like most men, he's not just capable of interpreting the lie of the land, he's actually very skillful at it. This sort of situation is a standard thing in workplaces up and down the country. If men were as terrible about reading non-verbal cues as people want us to think, the productivity in workplaces would be a lot less than it is, with people being constantly interrupted by men with communication difficulties unable to get on with their work. But those same men go back to their wives, grope them and pretend they don't understand when the cues are given in a domestic contest, though they understand them well enough in a work context.

And yet still women make excuses for them.

He needs to be educated?

How old is he, 5?

He's responsible for his own education. If he hasn't educated himself to respect his wife and her bodily integrity, what sort of man is he?

Gross, it sounds gross. I couldn't be with someone that pawed me.

My OH does/did this a lot.
In the end I snapped at him, I was sick of him constantly pulling at me and groping me. He stopped all contact for a while and when I questioned it he said he didn't want to annoy me with touching etc etc. I told him to stop being a moron and just learn when and where things are appropriate. He's slowly getting to grips with reading my mood first. Before he used to think me saying "No!" or "Get off!" was being playful! Up until I had to scream it at him, and then I was "over reacting".
It still happens a bit but he's much better.

It's quite flattering really, when you think about it

Objection - Being sexually harassed is not flattering.

If men are so good at communication, why is it that we have to teach our sons, explicitly, that, when a woman says "No", she means "No", and not "Oooo, yes, please!"?

Because so many are teaching our boys the opposite.

Clarify?

Films or TV series for example that teach boys that women say no at first, but if you persist, they enjoy it. Once you start looking for it, you will notice that this is a common scenario in "romantic" scenes, including programmes teenagers watch.

how on earth do they manage to function in the workplace? How comes they're not constantly pissing off their colleagues, misunderstanding what their boss wants them to do, not being able to read body language, atmospheres etc. in meetings, not being able to show proper sensitivity and awareness at times of stress, problems etc. at work?

Oh dear.

Actually all the males in our family have trouble with all the above.

Maybe I need to cut DH more slack rather than less (my gentle re-education veered rather towards 'How bloody thick are you not to get that doing something I dislike doesn't turn me on?'

i wouldn't cut him more slack. If he genuinely has problems with communication, he needs to take responsibility and get help for that. Contact for example Aspergers organisations and see if they run communication courses.

What stands out for me is that you were telling him you were unwell and he just bypassed that and went on about your nipples. That would have me in a rage tbh its nice he still fancies you that way but bloody hell, talk about insensitive! I would say Im at him being this crass but tbh Im not really, a lot of men can be really upset at what they see as rejection. You've been together for years, so just tell him how you feel I can't see why he won't understand. If he does continue to be huffy about it that would seem like bloody-mindeness for the sake of it. Tell him, don't make it a long drawn-out explanation either. You don't have to apologise for not appreciating groping, or for being ill.

YANBU to let him know you don't like something. Even if you've let him do it for years, you're allowed to change your mind. When I first met DP we would do things that I hate now, and when I went off them, I said 'no let's not do that' and he said 'okay, let's try this instead' and vice versa.

Let him get over himself, if he is decent he will stop groping you and do things you both like. If he continues sulking because he can't squeeze your boobies anymore, you know you've married a manchild

Reassure him you don't think he's a sex offender, you just don't like it, but you like when he does this and that so he could do that more?
That type of thing

Thx Greenwinter; Aspergers is more than a possibility, and he does realise that. (It's poss for both of us, in fact, and we're already up to our ears in coping with our son's ASD needs. Sigh.)

I suppose it's just that I'd prefer any future partner of DS to be a little kinder than I was about things that might be a genuine communication problem.

Meanwhile, I get very boring (to both boys, and increasingly my daughter) on the subject of 'If someone's not obviously welcoming it, you don't bloodydo it.'