Am I being unreaosnable to think that having kids shouldn't automatically give you more right to have the bank holidays off?

[KitKat1985]

Hello all.

Maybe Mumsnet isn't the best place to ask this question but I'm fed up. I work as a nurse in a hospital unit (open 24 hours, 365 days a week). It is, obviously, a fact of our job that the bank holidays need to be covered on the nursing rota, and I have no problem with this per se, as I accept that it's part of the job. What I am fed up is that my boss seems automatically to give the large majority of bank holiday working to those who are child-less, and gives priority to have the day off to the nursing staff who are parents. I could understand more if this was a child-care issue, but no, 95% of the parents where I work have partners / husbands who are also off on the bank holiday, so that there is already child-care available. I have just worked all 4 days of the Easter weekend, not spent any quality time with my husband, and missed one engagement party and family gathering because of work; and yet a lot of my colleagues with children have been off the whole 4 days (again). I'm down on the next rota to work May-day as well. Christmas and New Year is even worse (and causes a lot of staff tensions) as a lot of child-less staff find themselves working all over Christmas and New Year, inevitably leading to a lot of bad feeling against the nursing staff with children, who seem to automatically get priority to have the time off. I'm not anti-family (and am indeed, currently pregnant) but am I being unreasonable to think that the bank holiday working should be shared out a bit better? It's very difficult to discuss this issue with my ward manager, who has several children herself, and is very adamant about not working bank holidays as it's 'family time'.

Throughout my life, I've known a number of vicars - most of the ones with children used to do Christmas Day on Boxing day, because they were so busy on the actual day. And that was every year. I know they signed up knowing that Christmas day and Easter day were the two biggest feast days, so they'd have to work them - but it still shows that it is possible to work Christmas Day and still have a family Christmas.

As someone on here has already said - this will also apply to families of military personnel who are on deployment.

For some people though it's not an unwillingness to work on Xmas day or to have the family Christmas on another day, it's the fact that if you have children you might not be able to get anyone else to look after them on Christmas Day.

Missing a family day is disappointing but it's ultimately 'just' an inconvenience really. Abandoning your children or a dependent adult however is a safeguarding issue and can leave you liable for prosecution. Though to be fair this would only really apply to Christmas and Boxing day as cover can usually be found for the other public holidays.

So why work a job you are required to do your fair share if you know you can't? Let's everyone else down and places an unfair expectation on childless people

This doesn't apply to me. But I think it is entirely unrealistic and unreasonable to expect people to determine the whole lifespan of their career based on a few years when they have small children or elderly parents and might find one day a year difficult to make arrangements for.

One day out of 365. It's economically unsound to rule out vast swathes of people from certain careers simply because they had the audacity to do something like have children or end up with an elderly parent who needs care. Far better to find ways to support them to juggle the two roles.

I don't think it's fair to expect colleagues to suck it up, I think it's something governments need to address - the dearth of caring support over public holidays.

This has to be looked at in conjunction with the fact that more and more jobs are now becoming shift patterned because of globalisation. The fact that we're all having to work longer (so don't rely on your parents to help out with Christmas day because they might have to work as well). That we're all being encouraged to move to where the jobs are (so may be 100% reliant on professionally sourced care services and don't have recourse to family support).

Indeed PoundingTheStreets - pay somebody else to do it for you and let that somebody esle work Christmas instead?

To be clear, I've never been talking about just Christmas day. In fact, I think my original post is pretty explicit that I'm talking about every bank holiday here. In fact I've said a couple of times I can even understand if couples with children where I work particularly want Christmas day off, and I wouldn't mind if they therefore offered to work Boxing day / New Year etc so it balances out that everyone can have some time off, but my annoyance is that my boss seems to give couples with children priority for EVERY bank holiday. So the other year I worked Christmas day, Boxing day, New Years Eve and New Years day; whereas a lot of my colleagues with children worked none of these days. It's this that I find unfair. Christmas just gone one colleague got out of working Christmas day for the third year in a row, because of his 'children' (the YOUNGEST of which is 14)!!

Andrew - I don't know what the answer is, but I think it's something we need to start looking at.

I think the more fields in which it's "business as usual" over public holidays, the less difficult it will be to find staff willing/able to work on those days.

KitKat - do you have a request book, and if so, what would happen if you requested Bank Holidays? Would the staff with children still be given priority over you?

I think this is a matter to take to your manager - or to their manager, if they aren't receptive, because you are absolutely NOT being unreasonable to think it's not fair for staff with children to get priority for every Bank Holiday!!

Yanbu there ought to be a fair sharing out of these days.

My jobbing in private sector but has similar issues and it annoys the hell out of me that parents got first refusalon school holidays iirrespective of when their holiday was requested. Ie I put in three weeks for my wedding and one of those weeks happened to fall in a school holiday. It was all agreed to start with and then a few months later I was told they would have to cancel my last week as a parent needed the time off. Needless to say they got told to bugger off!

No one as carte blanche to all bank holidays or school holidays. I would talk to hr and your union rep and see of there is anything that cam be done to balance it out

Kitkat, did you request any of those days off though?

If you didn't, and the parents did, then it makes sense that they got it off.

If you did request them off, and were told 'no, parents have first dibs' then that is clearly wrong and discriminatory.

YADNBU

I'm a nurse and found this issue very prominent. On the ward I used to work on there were around 30 staff and it was only me and two other nurses who didn't have children (or grandchildren etc) and it was always us getting the crap shifts. It seemed to be an unwritten rule that as we didn't have children then obviously we don't care about Christmas, God Forbid we'd want to still see our family even though they're adults.

One Christmas I had to work 8 hours on Christmas Day, 13 hours on Boxing Day and 13 hours again on the 27th - then you see other colleagues who have children being given consecutive days off.

Same goes for trying to get time off in the half term or summer holidays - us childless staff were always bottom of the heap. My partner (now my DH) is a teacher so the only chance we got to go away together was during school holidays and I felt like I had to beg to get time off during this time whereas the staff without children were given time off with no problems.

It is seriously unfair.

Once you start preferring one sort of private life over another where does it end? If you are bringing up two children alone does that trump one child and no DP/DH? What about one child and one aged parent? Does an aged parent "matter" less if s/he is in residential care so that the basic needs are covered? I do not want to imagine the loneliness of having no family to visit you on Christmas Day in the departure lounge.

And then, among the no-dependent people: does a Scout/Guide/Cub/Brownie commitment trump church choir practice?

As for religious observances, please, let's not go there . . .

Or of course you can treat everyone equally, respect everyone's private life equally, and spread the burden equally.

What puzzles me as a man is this: because of the great gender apartheid which still exists in employment (look at primary education and the NHS) a woman who demands special consideration is likely to be pissing on other women!

Andrew, you cannot just apply a blanket 'equality' across the board like that.

Immediately 2 groups of people are being unfairly burdened - the lone parent, and the parent whose partner also works.

Lone parent: Will have to pay above the odds for childcare on Xmas day, if they can access childcare at all on Xmas day.

2 working parents: either spend no xmases as a complete family unit with their children, as they are working every other Xmas each in the spirit of 'fairness', or their children have to have Xmas without their parents every 2 years, to enable them to have the same alternate xmases off duty (also add the childcare burden to that).

Blanket equality almost never works, managing diversity is the key.

And a diverse range of religions is actually beneficial to this sort of situation, as different religions celebrate different things at different times.

Those of non Christian faith usually volunteer to work our Christian based holidays, to ensure they can observe their own sacred days.

Everyone's a winner!

Managing diversity is a buzzword. Why should the people without dependents be burdened. is not that also unfair?

There's only one way to solve the Christmas dilemma.

Cancel it.

There, sorted. Right, now, how do we solve the school holiday dilemma?

I work in a hotel, we are open 365 days a year. No one at all is allowed to book any leave in December as its our busiest month, i was rotered off xmas eve, everyone worked xmas day, i was off boxing day. Everyone was working new years day but i was off new years eve. Just the way it worked out. I've worked every mothers day, easter sunday, may day, xmas day and new years day for years regardless of having 3 children.

Thems the breaks, if i dont like it theres plenty other people willing to do the job.

Luckily theres no preference here to people who have kids. You put in your request and if theres enough other members of staff available it will be approved, if not then its declined.

monica, the way you see it, groups of people other than the two you specify are being unfairly burdened: people with family they want to spend the time with; people with friends they want to spend the time with; people who want to spend the day at home in their PJs watching telly.

I don't think any of these groups have wants that outweigh anyone else's. Fair sharing of bank holiday working is the only way to achieve any kind of parity/fairness.

KitKat I honestly think you have to take this higher. It's not fair and it's not right to force childless people to work the unpopular shifts and parents get the days off. Yes workplaces need to be flexible but not to the detriment of the other workers.

Good luck!

In the 'you will work every other Xmas day, no ifs, no buts' those 2 specific groups are disproportionately affected compared to other groups. I explained quite clearly in what way in my post.

People without dependants do not need to be financially crippled by working Xmas day (if there is childcare available on Xmas day).

People who have no dependants do not have to never have a Xmas day as a complete family (if both parents work and their work has a Xmas day expectation).

The parent should absolutely not trump everyone else all the time, I never suggested that. I said the parent deserves extra consideration over the person who wants to sit at home on their own in their pants.

Please read my previous posts, I did describe how in 19 years I have witnessed only a few instances where someone working on Xmas day has not volunteered to do so. We put in our requests and also any shifts/days we will volunteer to do (I always volunteer boxing day onwards).

I am actually surprised that there are so many selfish people who volunteer for nothing - this is not something I am familiar with at all tbh.
(I include the parents who refuse to volunteer for bank holidays other than Xmas and those with no dependants who think their right to sit in pants on own on Xmas day is more important than a parent getting to spend Xmas morning with their young child).

those with no dependants who think their right to sit in pants on own on Xmas day is more important than a parent getting to spend Xmas morning with their young child

when its the pant wearers turn, yes. no one persons life is more important or contains more important things than another's.

This is really not fair op i am a nurse with small children I had Xmas before last off so I worked last Xmas off and most places say if you work either Xmas or new year you get the other off I do my fair share of bank holidays too your manager is being really unfair if they won't compromise raise it as a grievance improving a working lives should be aboutbimproving everybody's working life not at the expanse of others.

I remember someone once phoning in sick for Christmas Day because their child was ill. She had her husband and family at home. It did not go down well with management.

YouAre, out of that whole last paragraph you chose to cut and paste one part (which I'd used as a highlighter to explain my point) to misrepresent my intent.

Quality.

If that is your opinion, then that is fine of course; I am just thankful that the hundreds of people I have had the privilege to work with for the last 19 years in the raf are not as self centred as that.

monica - I find your posting style confusing.

never the less, I have found people who I work with absolutely fine about holidays. give and take all round.