Am I being unreaosnable to think that having kids shouldn't automatically give you more right to have the bank holidays off?

[KitKat1985]

Hello all.

Maybe Mumsnet isn't the best place to ask this question but I'm fed up. I work as a nurse in a hospital unit (open 24 hours, 365 days a week). It is, obviously, a fact of our job that the bank holidays need to be covered on the nursing rota, and I have no problem with this per se, as I accept that it's part of the job. What I am fed up is that my boss seems automatically to give the large majority of bank holiday working to those who are child-less, and gives priority to have the day off to the nursing staff who are parents. I could understand more if this was a child-care issue, but no, 95% of the parents where I work have partners / husbands who are also off on the bank holiday, so that there is already child-care available. I have just worked all 4 days of the Easter weekend, not spent any quality time with my husband, and missed one engagement party and family gathering because of work; and yet a lot of my colleagues with children have been off the whole 4 days (again). I'm down on the next rota to work May-day as well. Christmas and New Year is even worse (and causes a lot of staff tensions) as a lot of child-less staff find themselves working all over Christmas and New Year, inevitably leading to a lot of bad feeling against the nursing staff with children, who seem to automatically get priority to have the time off. I'm not anti-family (and am indeed, currently pregnant) but am I being unreasonable to think that the bank holiday working should be shared out a bit better? It's very difficult to discuss this issue with my ward manager, who has several children herself, and is very adamant about not working bank holidays as it's 'family time'.

[monicalewinski]

Actually, something has occurred to me which makes sense to me as to why I am so annoyed by the rhetoric about working mothers 'doing their share' on this thread.

I joined the raf in 1995, one year after they finally stopped sacking women for getting pregnant. I had my first child in 2002, there were still very few mothers in the raf at this point and my god did some of them get shit for it.

I have known (back in the bad old days) mothers who kept getting dicked for extra duties and night shifts, last minute duties and working weekends. I did as much as was feasible without making a noise, the only times I ever said 'I won't be able to do that' was when my husband was away so I was essentially a lone parent.

I have been lucky to have had quite reasonable line managers over the years, but others haven't; I have heard the following said about us wrafs with children: 'always want special treatment', ' we're all equal here', 'you wanted equality, you fucking got it', 'all the blokes that work here who are parents too don't ask for this special treatment'. (You get the picture).

The truth is that yes, there were some mums who played it, but there were a much larger majority of us who were working very, very hard to prove we weren't a drain.

Fwiw, a lot of the blokes that were 'not asking for special treatment' had wives that did not work (in 19 years I have known 1 woman serving in raf whose husband was sahp), they often had 'an early finish because my wives shifts clash', with no disparaging comments made etc.

What I am trying to say, is that to hear other women spouting the same shit about 'equality' is like stepping back in time to an era that I would rather forget.

Equality is not as simple as 'treat everyone exactly the same'; managing diversity (Buzz word or not Andrew), is making sure that everyone's needs are balanced as fairly as possible.

*Use a request book for hotly contested leave periods
*Canvess for volunteers prior to hotly contested leave periods
*Use a robust 'first come, first serve' style leave pass system
*Talk to your colleagues re who prefers what days etc and do favours for each other when possible

They are the things that we use at work, and it works pretty damned well.

[justtoomessy]

If that was happening where I work people would be complaining. I suggest you speak to her about it as it is really unfair and this is coming from someone who has a kid (however, I am fixed shifts as single parent).

I have worked either chirstmas day or boxing day and over the New Year every year and will probably be doing that for the next 10 at least as it seems to always fall on my fixed days. My poor son gets fobbed off on the rest of my family however, this is the price I pay for having fixed shifts which makes my life easier the rest of the year.

I would have made a huge fuss at the first sight of that off duty though.

[CPtart]

Another nurse here that says YADNBU. I now have children and still agree that this shouldn't give me priority over any bank holidays. I am still resentful of having had to work more than my share when childless.
As for the NHS being flexible, ha. I was refused set shift patterns around which to arrange paid childcare, so left and now work in general practice which is marginally better.

[MyUsernameIsPants]

TBH this first come first served request is a crap system too.

In my old job, the request book for annual leave was filled up by the regular night staff. All half term/bank holidays were full of their requests because they had more time to look through the diary and put their requests in.

The day workers (NHS general ward) were then left with having to rotate onto the nights (night staff never worked days) to cover the annual leave, just because the night staff got there first.

Caused so many problems that the management put a stop to first come first served during school holidays.

The only way to work it was to treat everyone fairly, regardless of children or not.

[Andrewofgg]

monicalewinski balancing everybody's needs is fine as long as everybody's needs weigh the same!

The problem is when management privileges one sort of need over another. The need of Anne who wants to spend Christmas with A's DCs should weigh no more, year on year, with the need of Bill to spend it with his siblings and their DCs, or the need of Carol to spend it with her DH/DP in warmer climes. Nobody should ever be rostered to work two Christmasses in succession.

And the same with earlies, lates, nights, weekends, you name it.

[monicalewinski]

Whatever Andrew.

I'm now disinterested in other people's working conditions and expectations - as I said, it has always worked very well for me and my husband in our workplace, as it does for everyone else.

In my job, we always work as a team and help each other out as much as poss - I've never known the bleating and 'me me me' personalities that seem prevalent at every other place of work according to this thread, and hope I never have to in the future.

Everybody's needs do not balance the same, hence you have to help each other out to balance them. Blanket equality is a useless and antiquated tool.

I'll ask the question of the OP again though, regarding her original aibu question:
Did you ask for the days off. If you did, were you refused specifically because 'parents get all the bank holiday weekend'.
If yes, then of course you are not unreasonable, it's not on.
If you didn't ask, then don't expect your line manager to be a mind reader.

[Andrewofgg]

Understood monica


The odd thing is that when I have been in posts involving rostered Saturday or Sunday work - never nights - I have generally been easy-going about swaps when asked in a non-entitled way. Obviously when DW or DS needed me at at a specific weekend anything we had planned was sacrosanct - but otherwise I have never been as hardline as I present myself. My bark is worse than my bite!

[monicalewinski]

Ime people are perfectly reasonable about asking a favour too Andrew (including me I like to think! )

[Andrewofgg]

Individuals are. The problem comes when someone sets up structures such as those the OP complains about. It really is better left to the good sense of all concerned - but then sometimes, just sometimes, somebody like my colleague Jane will have real problems.

[OnlyLovers]

If every group is burdened sometimes (financially, logistically, emotionally, however) then it's not perfect but it is at least fair. If some groups are burdened more often than others, because someone thinks they have less right to bank holidays off, then it's not fair.

I agree with MyFavourite on your comment 'those with no dependants who think their right to sit in pants on own on Xmas day is more important than a parent getting to spend Xmas morning with their young child' and don't see why you have a problem with it being used. It hasn't been taken out of context and it seems very much to represent, if not your own interest (I can't second-guess that), then at least one of the major points of this thread: that of who has more 'right' to a day off than whom.

Someone spending Xmas day with their child is simply not, in any objective way, more 'important' than someone spending Xmas day on their own in their pants. The 'important' thing in both cases is that both parties take their fair share of the burden.

[monicalewinski]

Onlylovers, that was half of a sentence.

The complete sentence was:

I include the parents who refuse to volunteer for bank holidays other than xmas and those with no dependants who think their right to sit in pants on own on Xmas day is more important than a parent getting to spend Xmas morning with their young child.

Which followed directly on from :

I am actually quite surprised that there are so many selfish people who volunteer for nothing - this is not something I am familiar with at all tbh

I was making the point that I am shocked that people are that selfish, that they do not volunteer for things ever, said it was something I am unfamiliar with, and included the selfish parents in that.

Do you really not see how that portion of a complete thought was quoted out of context?

I will also repeat, I personally volunteer every year to do extra duties and to work bank holidays. I volunteer every year to do boxing day onwards; so that I can guarantee Xmas morning off.

[Andrewofgg]

monica You prove my point that MN is populated by the decent types who volunteer and step in to help.

The problem is that any promise to Sarah has to be hedged round with conditions. If one of the women resigns or goes on mat. leave and a man is recruited - all bets are off. Even a day's sickness may mean that she has to work close to a man.

I see the point about "perhaps it's one particular man" - but you can only help with problem she identifies. As for the suggestion that "it's her DH or her male relllies" - frankly that is patronising (matronising?) in the extreme. She must be taken to speak for herself.

OP I still think you need professional advice. But failing that do the best you can without disrupting other people's lives and careers and what her of the limits of the possible.

[Andrewofgg]

Oh shit.

My last post was meant for another thread. The first line was correct!

[Bue]

Andrew I thought the thread had moved on in a surprising direction and I'd missed it

[Vintagejazz]

TBH this first come first served request is a crap system too. [Quote]


I totally agree. If someone got the most popular Summer weeks off last year they should not be allowed just book them again this year with no regard for the people who missed out the previous year. Holiday rotas should be drawn up on an 'everyone takes their turn' basis.
Otherwise you will always get selfish people who are hardly back from one holiday before they're blocking off time for the next one.

[kelda]

We have to put our holiday requests in by a certain date, and they are discussed and allocated as fairly as possible.

I don't like the 'first come, first served' system.

[x2boys]

The off duties in the NHS are always a bone of contention as they are easily manipulated and I have always found 'friends' of the ward manager or who ever is doing the off duties always get Much nicer off duties then me I think they should be done of ward by a third party to reduce manipulation . The flexible working policy is not worth the paper its written on either my flexible working request not to work nights was refused I thought with me having a three year old who was diagnosed with autism who does not sleep and is non verbal dh works arkward shifts too I might get some understnding no still have to work them despite having,no childcare i am off sick now and not going back

[Pobblewhohasnotoes]

I have always found 'friends' of the ward manager or who ever is doing the off duties always get much nicer off duties then me

This is definitely true. I work with people who have children who won't work weekends or nights and for some reason it's allowed. Yet I have children and have to work both. How is that fair? It's one rule for some and one for everyone else. I also find that when I do work weekends it's with the same people. And it means more nights and weekends for the rest of us.

[x2boys]

There is alot of nepotism in the NHS and if your face fits you get what you want and if it does nt you get lumbered with the crap the managers don't seem to have any proper management training and therefore no clue!

[Mumoftwoyoungkids]

Do they not have a computer program to work it all out? Surely all everyone has to do is input a 1 - 5 next to each shift depending on how much they do (or don't) want to work it and then the program works it all out using a least sum of squares method.

(Starts thinking about exactly how I would write such a program and exactly what I would spend the millions one once I'd sold it to the NHS.)

[Pobblewhohasnotoes]

Would that work though with people like me that have fixed childcare days because of nursery? I can't deviate so there's no point 'hoping' that the computer will just grant my request when I don't have any other options.

We did use the computer rota briefly but we found the only way to guarantee a day was to number it as a really low priority as if you put in too many high requests the computer refused them. Which is not the point of doing it.

[tallulah]

The problem isn't "entitled parents" but bad management.

I have worked in a variety of jobs all with different leave systems. When you can't have too many people off at once the fairest way is to let everyone pick one holiday, then start from the last person to pick first for the next holidays.

OP as you are currently pregnant you will soon find out that most nurseries close down completely over Xmas week. If you are in the situation I am, with a DH who works in an industry which does not allow leave in December or January and works 5/7 with no pattern, there is no way I could work that week as there would be nobody to have DD.

[x2boys]

Self rostering can and does work but you have to rely on your cllegues to be fair and it would be great to have a computer system to work it all out but as pp stated she has set nursery days there may always be shifts in this instance where she is going to panic and think who the hell will watch the children I think there has to be more flexibility for example we are required to work two long days and two short days the long days are 12 and 1\4 hours I try to do them on dh days off ( which vary) and short days are early and lates so I try to do Early's when dh is working lates and vice versa it does not always work like this which leads to unnecessary stress like I said. Am not going back my son has a diagnosis of autism and this is stressful enough without all the crap from work too!

[Andrewofgg]

Much of the NHS uses a computer system called IIRC Rotamaster - but there are settings and the devil is in the detail. It can (and I think should) be set so that the same person never gets Christmas two years running - or so that certain persons never get Christmas at all. So it does not solve the problem, it just does the donkeywork.

[x2boys]

I agree Andrew and I am fair two years ago I had Xmas off so I worked last Xmas I think that's fair other people take the piss however , there is a lot of movement where I work\worked so it is quite possible people will have been moved by the next Xmas so its difficult to say well I worked last Xmas when you are not working on the same ward.