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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask those of you who are pro life?

999 replies

Anonynony · 21/04/2014 14:49

How do you feel about friends who have had abortions? Can you maintain friendships with people who have had an abortion and no regrets?

One of my friends has stunned me, talking about another friend of ours who had considered an abortion and my friend said I'm so glad she didn't because I wouldn't have been able to stay friends with her Shock
I'm really surprised, I'm extremely pro choice and vocal about it but this doesn't bother my friend.
But what my friend doesn't know is that I also had an abortion and although I have no regrets I feel a bit strange around my friend now?

OP posts:
CaptChaos · 22/04/2014 19:30

Bumbley while I'm sure you think you mean well, I was actually engaging with a sensible poster. After your showing on the last thread we 'spoke' on, I have no wish to converse with you again.

I'd be very happy if you would respect that, but I doubt very much that you will. Until MN sees fit to engage in a 'hide poster' I will have to rely on your discretion. Sorry, just my little joke.

gordyslovesheep · 22/04/2014 19:32

oh dear - next you'll be lumping Myra and Rose West in there as well

That woman was acting illegally so it's not relevant

I would defend a womans right to abort to term under the law - the reality is it doesn't happen

nearly ALL terminations are before 20 weeks - why do pro lifers always focus on late abortions ?

because it's easier to use emotional blackmail maybe?

LtEveDallas · 22/04/2014 19:34

Ikea,
Sarah Catt was sentenced to 8 years in 2012, it was reduced to 3.5 years on appeal and she has already been released.

Furthermore the judge in her case (that gave her 8 years) was later discovered to be the vice-president of the Lawyers’ Christian Fellowship, which encourages its members to apply God’s justice on the ground and opposes abortion.

Not a great example.

thebodydoestricks · 22/04/2014 19:34

ikeaismylocal actually no I don't think she should have been jailed.

Seems to me she needed help.

A case so rare by the way it made the headlines.

bumbly we are all pro life dear. Pro life and pro choice are too me exactly the same.

bumbleymummy · 22/04/2014 19:35

Again with the statistics, we know what they are. We know that it is illegal to abort a healthy pregnancy after 24 weeks. The reason we are discussing late term abortions is because some of you are saying that they should be legal, because it is a woman's right to choose until birth for any reason.

GarlicAprilShowers · 22/04/2014 19:36

Good plan, thebody!

Bumble, it's bad manners to harp on about an error after it's been acknowledged. I'm not surprised I conflated them: unlike some posters here, I don't pore over sensationalised reports of Evil Abortion Doctors (all two of them in four years.)

Both men were attempting to help desperate women in terrible circumstances. Here's a non-hysterical review of the George Tiller case. Viz stats.

bumbleymummy · 22/04/2014 19:38

"That woman was acting illegally so it's not relevant"

Yes, but some of you had your way, she would have been acting legally. That's the point. If you support it in theory, you should support it in practice. Those women who would abort to term clearly do exist so you can't hide behind your 'it wouldn't happen' argument.

thebodydoestricks · 22/04/2014 19:38

gordy they focus on these minuscule cases because it's too much real life to focus on the stats for back street abortions and birth mortalities world wide.

They focus on this instead of criticising the disgusting treatment of pregnant women in places like Ireland.

It's easier.

GarlicAprilShowers · 22/04/2014 19:41

Just having looked at her case, Sarah Catt was clearly poorly. Do you think she'd have been a marvellous mother in that state?

Or - perish the thought - do you not actually give a shit about the life of any children born, just as long as you can force them to be born?

ikeaismylocal · 22/04/2014 19:41

Actually I am only discussing very late term abortions because I am pro-choice up until viabilty, it is the opinion of some posters that late term abortions should be available and legal that has instigated me posting.

I think the idea that all abortion should be illegal is damaging and wrong, I think people who actively protest especially outside abortion clinics are cruel.

I seem to be in the minority in that I don't swing either way to the extreme, I imagine most people have similar veiws to me they just don't feel strongly enough either way to post.

bumbleymummy · 22/04/2014 19:43

I'm pretty sure that's not what Anonynony meant by 'pro-life' in her title. Is that how you interpreted it? Even after reading her OP?

GarlicAprilShowers · 22/04/2014 19:44

Ikea, yours is the majority view :) 73% of americans, and 80-something percent of Brits, favour abortion with the 24-week limit plus Ground 4.

Because of dangerous anti-choice extremists, some of us feel obliged to defend our fully pro-choice stance against them, that's all.

bumbleymummy · 22/04/2014 19:45

thebody - late term abortion comes up because some of you are saying that you think it should be legal and that it would never happen. Clearly it does happen.

Dawndonnaagain · 22/04/2014 19:45

Tiller died five years ago. By a male anti abortionist. Hmm

ikeaismylocal · 22/04/2014 19:46

Just having looked at her case, Sarah Catt was clearly poorly. Do you think she'd have been a marvellous mother in that state?

Many babies are killed by their ill mothers? do you just think oh well another baby dead but you know what the mother would have been crap anyway so probably better the baby was smothered.

bumbleymummy · 22/04/2014 19:47

Garlic, that's another poor argument. If a woman is unable to look after her baby/child should she be able to kill it?

bumbleymummy · 22/04/2014 19:47

x-post ikea.

CheerfulYank · 22/04/2014 19:50

I have anti-abortion leanings but have friends who have had them and don't feel/act differently toward them. They have all strengthened my anti-abortion feelings, though.

CaptChaos · 22/04/2014 19:51

I apologise then Ikea I missed the post where you said that previously. I agree that people who protest outside clinics are needlessly cruel.

I used to believe as you do, until I did some reading around it and realised that what that belief does is takes away women's bodily autonomy. It is an emotive subject though, it's not something I can ever envisage having to choose, but I would wholeheartedly support any woman who did choose it.

My firm belief is, as early as possible, as late as necessary and on demand. I understand Sweden offers on demand abortion, no questions asked until 18 weeks, and then a woman has to get permission. I would like to see similar in the UK, where a woman can choose, unhindered by having to get permission up to 24 weeks gestation. (I would like to see it being legal for a woman to choose up to term, but I am fully aware that this won't happen, legislators will never be in the position, and are squeamish about upsetting people)

GarlicAprilShowers · 22/04/2014 19:52

If a woman is unable to look after her baby/child should she be able to kill it?

She should be able to abort it.

LtEveDallas · 22/04/2014 19:53

Ikea, in law the authorities been able to prove that Sarah Catt killed her living child after birth she would have been charged with Infantcide whilst the balance of her mind was unsound and she is unlikely to have been jailed.

The fact that she pleaded guilty to what is a lesser offence and was subsequently given a harsher sentence, plus there was nothing other than circumstantial evidence firm against her, so her 'confession' is alone what convicted her, would suggest that this was a miscarriage of justice against a woman whose MH is clearly in question.

ikeaismylocal · 22/04/2014 19:54

Because of dangerous anti-choice extremists, some of us feel obliged to defend our fully pro-choice stance against them, that's all.

I respect your dedication to fighting against the anti-choice extremists. I personally find that I feel I can't call myself pro-choice anymore as some posters have said things like I think women should have no rights over their own body.

I think that any extreme opinion especially when delivered in a standoffish way can ultimatly damage the cause the person is trying to protect/promote.

GarlicAprilShowers · 22/04/2014 19:59

Agreed, Ikea! It's sad that people have prompted you to feel a pro-limited-choice stance is anti-choice (are you sure it wasn't Bumbley who accused you of that? Wink)

Limited anti-choice is the same as limited pro-choice; it's a question of degree. You are among the reasonable majority!

ikeaismylocal · 22/04/2014 20:00

I was wrong about the Swedish abortion laws, they are as capt stated on demand up until 18 weeks, then with drs permission up until 22 weeks, then only if the fetus/mother has serious heath problems.

I found a statistic whilst researching googling which said that 1/4 of pregnancies in sweden ends in abortion, abortion is not controversial at all here (as far as I have experienced) abd Sweden has one of the lowest teenage pregancay (well I assume birth) rates in the world.

I think an open and libral attitude to abortion is great for a cociety but I do still find it hard to see that very late abortions are morally right.

GarlicAprilShowers · 22/04/2014 20:12

I do still find it hard to see that very late abortions are morally right

So do I. The thought makes me squirm. But I defend women's right to do what they deem best with their own pregnancies.

I am somewhat influenced by history, though I'd still defend my position intellectually. When I was a child, in the 1960s, one of my mum's friends was a midwife. She used to talk about having smothered a baby after delivery - the ones she discussed in front of me were those born horrifically deformed (no face, no skull, etc,) but Mum tells me that midwives had to make far more subtle decisions back then. This was on a more or less daily basis in a deprived area like ours: midwives were choosing the fate of the babies they delivered, and of the women they attended. It was incredibly stressful and they had little moral or emotional support - hence the long tea-breaks at ours.

Each of those women had to carry & birth an infant that had no good chance of a reasonable life. Each of the midwives murdered babies they delivered. I want this never to be necessary, in any degree, ever again.