To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

[Menolly]

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

pass, no, you obviously didn't read my post. It was a long one a few pages back.

So you can't see the difference between 'inside' and 'a part of' either? See my recent posts to Sabrina. You know you can be inside something and not be part of it don't you? It's not the strongest argument.

Hop - Well, I agree that women should make their own choices to a certain degree - the degree that is within the law. There have been some rumblings in medical circles recently that the abortion act is being misused, because they are effectively being given on request rather than complying with the criteria laid out by the abortion act I.e. abortion likely to cause less physical/mental damage to the mother than continuing with the pregnancy.

By this definition, being pro-choice does not mean a woman can terminate for "whatever reason".

On the rare occasion that someone is using it as repeated contraception, then I would question whether the criteria are met.

Not wishing to utterly upset the applecart Sabrina, whilst I don't agree with Bumbley's views, she is right about the foetus not being a part of the mother's body. Within it and dependant on it for life yes, but then so is a tapeworm.

Perhaps bumbley. You would care to explain anaphylaxis?

Sorry - can't agree, chew. Tapeworm is a parasite. Foetus has grown from within the woman's body - is attached via umbilical and placenta - all part of the woman's body.

Argument is academic anyway - the woman still has bodily autonomy over something that is inside her body.

Sabrina, The mechanisms have to be there or the foetus wouldn't survive. They basically have to 'cloak' the foetus from the mother's immune system. If the foetus was recognised as part of the woman then there would be no need for those mechanisms at all.

Being inside you, being dependent on you, is not the same as being a part of you.

Bum, was you trying to contradict me there because I think you actually only agreed with me.

TheHoneyBadger - love what you say about Christianity. I don't even like to call myself a Christian, it's almost full circle back to being an insult. When you get into what the Bible actually says it was quite ahead of its time, Paul would have been really shocking for the support he gave women. Sadly people seem to be so into it being infallible that they think it was written in 20th Century English and can take it at the exact words they read. It means far more if you start to understand the context. Also, Jesus never commented on people's sins, he never told them what they'd done or criticised, he could have thrown the first stone and he didn't. He loved people and accepted whoever they were.

Technically, a foetus is a parasite! The umbilical cord and placenta are grown from part of the egg when it splits....some becomes the baby, and the other bit the placenta. It is connected to the woman's body, but not made by the body.

The woman has the right of bodily autonomy still, bumbley, on anything inside her body.

I maintain that the foetus is a part of my body until birth - when it can live independently.

^ and chew.

Anyway, those people with placards and horrible pictures are terrible! We were shown an anti-abortion video in GCSE English years ago, with all the gruesome bits. Don't think that would be allowed now, and a spectacular abuse of power by the teacher. Still don't think people should line up for their 10th abortion though with no questions being asked about contraception ( if lack of contraception is why abortion is needed ). That might make me a judgey-pants but I do think having loads of them with a "not bothered" attitude takes the piss. Particularly when some people really need them but can't have them, like Baby. Rant over.

Y chew - silly semantic, academic argument.

Those videos in school are still going on, chew, where the schools allow it. There are no end of pro-life organisations willing to go into schools...

Sabrina - in theory, but the idea of someone aborting in their 39th week because they've changed their mind, makes me feel physically sick. And some individuals are sick enough to do that. If its for situations incompatible with life or severely disabled, the. That's different, but there are people who will change their mind because their boyfriend dumps them. And that has got to be wrong.

Thank you Chewbacca.

Dawndonna, what would you like me to explain about anaphylaxis? Can you not just go and google or are you trying to relate it to the foetus somehow?

Sabrina, the umbilical cord and part of the placenta develop from the embryo.

either way IMO as long as the foetus is inside the woman it is part of her body, it is taking nutrients from her body also, science might say that it isn't part of but it's all pretty much the same, the foetus is inside the woman, the woman doesn't wish for it to be therefore she has the right not to be a glorified incubator.

Sabrina, "I maintain that the foetus is a part of my body until birth"

Maintain it all you like. Science says otherwise.

if you're referring to your post at 12:07 then I did see it...

you said sorry her baby will not survive which I am pretty sure everyone obviously is. you aren't sorry enough to believe she should have a choice though are you?

do you protest outside clinics bumble out of curiosity?

Exactly, pass.

I do suggest to bumbley that she goes up to the next heavily pregnant woman she sees and suggests that the foetus isn't part of her body. It would be comical, I'm sure.

Chew, "the idea of someone aborting in their 39th week because they've changed their mind, makes me feel physically sick. And some individuals are sick enough to do that."

I agree.

Chew, you've gone from saying 'the rare occasion that it is used as repeated contraception' to making a hugely generalised 'loads of them with a not bothered attitude taking the piss'.

Whilst not disputing there must be at least one woman out there who does this, I'd love to see some statistics on the reasons/frequency of women having multiple abortions (if they exist) because it really does sound like a DM scare story.

Abortion after a certain time is not a straightforward matter, and I find it very hard to believe that a woman would put her body through that to use it as contraception rather than just take the pill or use a condom/coil/whathaveyou.

And even if there are more than a handful of women doing this in the UK, that doesn't mean the vast majority of women seeking abortion who don't should be punished or shamed as if they were too.

I honestly don't believe that women dumped by their boyfriends would be queuing up outside hospitals demanding full-term abortions should the law change. Women are in general the ones left holding the babies, but they don't generally resent it - they resent the men that leave. They love their children, fiercely protect them, go without to provide and care for them. That's my general experience anyway.

Bumbley - it's like you believe that many pregnant women are all harbouring secret full-term baby-killing thoughts and only the laws in place stop them. Ridiculous.

"I do suggest to bumbley that she goes up to the next heavily pregnant woman she sees and suggests that the foetus isn't part of her body"

Competition for your last silly comment. Why on earth would I need to do that? Why would anyone find it offensive anyway? I'm pretty sure most people don't think the foetus is actually part of them - attached to them - yes. What's wrong with the idea of having a separate entity inside you anyway? I wouldn't find it offensive at all. (although I would think a stranger walking up to me and telling me that would be a bit odd...)

Passmethewineplease - I get where you're coming from, but unless its a rape or incest/abuse situation, it's not like the woman has "picked up" the foetus from a situation she had nothing to do with. A foetus is not an aggressor the mother had no part in (in general), so I am a bit bewildered by those posts which seem to express outrage at a woman being "forced" to grow a baby. Surely if you are having consenting sex, even with contraception, there is a risk of pregnancy. The older I get, the more I understand my mum's attitude that when having sex, you should be aware that a baby might be conceived. Am now officially an old fart.

It's academic anyway, bumbley - and has no impact on the argument for or against abortion, because the woman's right to bodily autonomy remains unaffected whether you want to argue the foetus is part of her, or inside her. But, I just think it would be funny for you to put it to a pregnant woman. I'd have been mightily offended if you put it to me. My body has never been the same since pregnancy - some things worse, some things better.

The physical toll that pregnancy and childbirth have on a woman's body is indisputable.