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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

999 replies

Menolly · 03/04/2014 00:08

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

OP posts:
ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 06/04/2014 21:24

Having a termination when there is no chance of the baby living outside of the womb is, in essence, turning off the baby's life support. You wouldn't agree that a termination was ok, would agree that the woman could have her labour induced before term? The end result (woman not pregnant, baby not living) is the same, it's just that the process is more traumatic and the baby potentially being suffering (baby your situation is heartbreaking and I'm so incredibly sad, angry and frustrated that you are having to go through this. I hope you don't take offence to me using your circumstances as an example.)

Would you be happy with women being allowed to induce their labour at any point in pregnancy? Say 12 weeks, 20 weeks etc? They wouldn't be having a termination, they would just be removing the baby's life support system by your logic?

Or is this like the other abortion debate I saw you on, when you seem to be unable to stating clearly what you would like to happen RE abortion law, and just mill around shit stirring and trying to hurt?

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 06/04/2014 21:25

Too many typos to correct. Gah!

bumbleymummy · 06/04/2014 21:27

Of course you are Capt. (It does tend to weaken your argument though)

I don't really care what you think of me Sabrina. Plenty of other people are making straw man arguments/misrepresenting things that I've said and not answering very basic questions that my own 8 year old would be able to answer. I guess that makes them foolish too.

TheBabyFacedAssassin · 06/04/2014 21:30

Hop no offence taken whatsoever. Your demonstration is perfect, that was the point I was trying to make. Then somehow shooting people in the head got thrown in as a counter...

TheHoneyBadger · 06/04/2014 21:31

i'm not overly surprised that the same person who expects the world to revolve around consideration of people being hurt by the idea of someone else having abortion is also the type to think that a choice of words (some arbitrarily decided to be 'bad' words) is a matter of substance.

bumbley you are the one discounting women who regret abortion - i told you my story up there and how it distinctly wasn't the case of abortion being bad but people preaching that abortion was bad and inflicting guilt and shame on people.

why you would choose to go on comparing an abortion to shooting someone in the head on a thread where women who are pregnant with foetus' incompatible with life and in need of an abortion is baffling -it seems beyond cruel and into the realms of sociopathic levels of absence of empathy.

i also wanted to say that when i say i want it to be the woman's choice i do so partly on the basis that i assume no sane woman wants to abort a late pregnancy without damn good reason and only she ultimately can be the one to decide in that situation.

i really have never, ever met anyone who would have a late abortion for the sake of it or because they decided actually i can't be arsed with this pregnancy after all.

thebody · 06/04/2014 21:32

*can you explain how the foetus is part of the woman's body then' self evident really.

Can you explain why you feel you have the right to prevent other womem having autonomy over their bodies.

Can you explain why women are not capable of making an informed decision to terminate a pregnancy for whatever reason up to the birth.

Can you explain why you feel that your feelings and yourpro life ha ha friends have any role what so ever in shouting/picketing/bombarding and bullying women accessing medical help.

Can you actually explain your attitude to babys situation.

TheHoneyBadger · 06/04/2014 21:35

again to be perfectly clear saying it must be the woman's choice is NOT saying abortion is wonderful or i don't feel any grief or horror at the idea of late pregnancies being aborted - it is saying that i do not want to live in a society where women can be forced to give birth or eton boys thinking of their voters make arbitrary decisions about women's bodies

we're in the world of lesser evils here - context is everything. in a choice between a very few might choose to abort late pregnancies without necessity that i can see OR a very many would have their lives, bodies and freedoms controlled and people like baby could be forced to go through what she's going through i would choose the chance of a very few lost late pregnancies.

bumbleymummy · 06/04/2014 21:35

"I am quite tired of you derailing this thread. Whilst not flouncing, I won't be engaging with you further."

How convenient Ali. You managed not to answer the question.

Just before you decide not to engage any further - do you know that there are several mechanisms in place to stop the mother's immune system from attacking the foetus as 'foreign tissue'. Why would it need that protection if it was actually part of the mother's body?

CaptChaos · 06/04/2014 21:39

^i also wanted to say that when i say i want it to be the woman's choice i do so partly on the basis that i assume no sane woman wants to abort a late pregnancy without damn good reason and only she ultimately can be the one to decide in that situation.

i really have never, ever met anyone who would have a late abortion for the sake of it or because they decided actually i can't be arsed with this pregnancy after all.^

Couldn't agree more with this. I really think it's odd that the anti-women lot always automatically think that, if women have the right to bodily autonomy, that we will be aborting foetus' at 39 weeks for shits and giggles. You really have to wonder at what they honestly think of women don't you?

Sorry, no, you don't. They think that women can't and shouldn't be trusted with decisions about their own bodies. That we're selfish. The very kindest spin you could put on it is that we need protecting from ourselves, bless us.

TheHoneyBadger · 06/04/2014 21:39

bumbley those mechanisms are there because pregnancy is actually a danger to women and their bodily integrity. because the female body defends itself against pregnancy given the chance. a quarter at least of the fertilised eggs you consider to be 'human lives' never even implant because they don't get past the female body's defenses.

you may think what your saying makes a point against an imagined argument with one poster but it actually does not at all support the idea that fetus' rights are bigger than those of their 'hosts'.

thebody · 06/04/2014 21:42

Honey exactly the point.

Bumbly and her supporters see life as so black and white, they will not acknowledge that the world can be a rough tough old bastard of a place and people are sometimes put in dreadful situations and are forced to take difficult decisions.

They just continue to ignore life and wave stupid placards and hold bloody vigils while slagging off and intimidating as many scared, pregnant women as possible.

TheHoneyBadger · 06/04/2014 21:43

exactly capt. it's as if the zillions of years that women have selflessly put themselves second and done everything they can for their children and families doesn't count for anything because ooh if you let them have abortions at their say so they'll show their true colours and be killing those poor fetus' left right and centre for the sake of it.

i mean really? have women proved to be terribly fickle and blase about their existing and potential offspring? i think women have proved themselves to be really fucking reliable when it comes to making responsible decisions about their fertility and their families. it's not women who en masse walk away from their own children and aren't even legally required to support them. yet we want to put women's fertility into the hands of men?

h'ok.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 06/04/2014 21:45

it's not women who en masse walk away from their own children and aren't even legally required to support them. yet we want to put women's fertility into the hands of men?

h'ok.

Never a truer bloody word honeybadger.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 06/04/2014 21:47

YY honeybadger. It always, always boils down to misogyny and deep mistrust of women - or even, as SGB says - deep envy and resentment of our fertility, and the fact that we can now have some control over it.

TheHoneyBadger · 06/04/2014 21:49

seriously why aren't these fetus worshippers outside downing street campaigning against the csa charging women to try and get child support and making them pay a percentage of it in fees? why aren't they campaigning for men to be legally obligated to financially support their offspring and to have it deducted from their salaries?

it is bugger all to do with babies and life and wanting women to be able to have children without fear and poverty and punishment. it's all about controlling their rights to have abortions. and once you let them come after the abortion rights they're after contraception next and taking benefits away from single mums etc. because they're all about controlling women and fertility and ultra conservatism and that's all they're about really.

Alisvolatpropiis · 06/04/2014 21:49

Excellent post Honey.

I am grateful there are men out there who are pro choice or at least anti women dying after having backstreet abortions, the law wouldn't have been changed without them.

However, I think men who are pro choice do need to recognise (and generally do) that this is an issue that they cannot and should not have the final say in. Unfortunately the current crop of politicians in parliament are neither broad minded nor forward thinking

thebody · 06/04/2014 21:50

Capt again totally agree your post.

CaptChaos · 06/04/2014 21:52

Honeybadger You should know that women shouldn't be trusted with any decisions more trying than 'what shall we have for dinner tonight, darling?' Hmm

I think your point about men being able to walk away scot free is pertinent. Men have absolutely no say in this debate whatsoever. Women bear all the responsibility and all the risk, and so women are the ones who should be making the decisions. Sadly, it is men who hold the power in this country, and so it is men who will take the decisions out of women's hands. For a change.

ravenAK · 06/04/2014 21:54

I find this thread quite heartening, actually.

A great deal of common sense & solidarity with other women being shared, & the oh so familiar poisonous, cruel & stupid posts from bum being effectively refuted.

Sterling work, ladies. Smile.

TheHoneyBadger · 06/04/2014 21:54

they don't want women to be able to have babies what they really want is for women not to have sex and not to be allowed to have control over their bodies and not to be supported in making their own choices about whether to get pregnant, what to do if they get pregnant, how to support an unplanned child and encourage joint responsibility for that jointly created consequence.

90 per cent of the time the same people who call themselves pro life outside the abortion clinics in america are anti welfare, pro war, anti homosexuality, anti single mums, anti fucking everything except the heteronormative ideal that rests upon women being kept firmly underfoot.

sorry if the word fucking offends but the idea of forcing women back into bloody catholic laundries to work for nothing and have their babies stolen and sold offends me so i guess we're quits in a world where using a swear word or making someone upset at the idea of something is on a par with forcing women to give birth to pregnancies that have no chance of resulting in a viable life.

CaptChaos · 06/04/2014 21:56

Another excellent post honey . It is all about a deep distrust of women's abilities.

Look at what's happening in the US. Contraception is excluded from many healthcare plans, abortion rights seriously eroded in some states, to the extent that women's lives are being placed in deliberate danger. And all because the religious right and other ultra conservative groups are terrified of women.

thebody · 06/04/2014 21:57

excellent Honey

my 20s lads have seen some of the thread and remarked that they would totally and utterly support any woman for any reason to act in a way that she feels is best for her and her life. They see abortion on demand as a fundamental right.

That would include any woman carrying their or anyone else's baby.

Their view on men who hang outside clinics with placards?

Wierdoes bullies and women haters. Probably capable of domestic violence and acts of deep cruelty.

So proud of the men i helped create.

TheHoneyBadger · 06/04/2014 21:57

exactly. WE are the ones who can give birth. get the fuck over it.

TheHoneyBadger · 06/04/2014 22:01

YES we hold the power of life or death in our hands. again GET OVER IT. we didn't ask for it and we certainly pay a high enough price for it and we handle it bloody amazingly. back off and leave us to it. if you believe in god then god gave us this position - it is god given and it is between us and god. not bloody busybodies and legislators.

thebody · 06/04/2014 22:02

Exactly.

Each individual has a right to autonomy over their own body and that goes for pregnant women up to and until birth.