to think that the minimum wage should be higher in London

[bottlenecker]

I really do not understand how the national minimum wage can possibly be the same in London as the rest of the country. How on earth can anyone live on that minimum wage?

That's a whole other thread fayrae - an interesting one I think.

Please, fayrae- go on.

You are doing a far better job of making your argument sound ridiculous than I ever could

Other thread comment was in response to your "chaos" post, fayrae

LuisSuarezTeeth: of course there is. You find the money somewhere. Beg, steal or borrow. How on earth do you think the majority of the world copes?

That does make you sound rather ill-informed fayrae

Excuse me? Why on earth is my argument ridiculous compared to the argument that it is the governments responsibility to micromanage people's lives for them? Your life, your choices, your responsibility. Not anyone else's. You can't expect "the government" in actuality - everyone in the country BUT you - to provide for you from cradle to grave. And that's not a political statement - I'm a Labour voter, generally - but a factual statement. The current way of doing things isn't viable. Either it stops now or it stops sometime in the future and our children/grandchildren bare the brunt of it 10 or 100 times over. I'd rather it stopped now and we became responsible adults instead of overgrown children.

America has extremely limited welfare but it doesn't seem to have worked for them.

Mmmhmm. Cradle to the grave, you say. I've heard that somewhere...

Why should people in London be paid more than anywhere else? You chose to live in London! Get an education and get a better paying job if you can't live on NMW. If not, deal with the fact you earn MW, and stop moaning!

Methe and others: turn it around the other way. Should a cleaner in a hospital in London live a much harder, shitier, poorer life than a cleaner in Lincoln?

Because they will, on the same wage. Because of the housing costs.

The housing costs are ruinous. If workers have to be supported by state benefits and tac credits etc, wouldn't it be better for the employers to take up the slack, and pay a higher age, than the tax payers of Lincoln underwrite the low wages / high house prices?

You seem to think this is about greedy Londoners wanting lush lives. Poor Londoners are struggling badly, not living in cover.

You react as if NMW is a state benefit of some kind.

If businesses and services make mega bucks in London, maybe their cleaners / baristas / waitressses should earn enough for a modest flat share.

why does the hospital cleaner not move to Lincoln?

What, all of them?

I think London is actually consuming itself - several people I know who need reasonable priced workshops spaces (joiners, metalworkers etc) have had to move out of London because there are no affordable workshops available - all bought up for development into flats.

So watch out for your jobs and school places, people of Not London, there's a massive influx of Ex Londoners heading your way!

Hmmm. We just experienced mail theft and CC fraud of the equivalent of £6000 by someone impersonating my DH. We are fairly sure it's someone from his background (majority of our neighbourhood) and I'd be pretty sad to see things go the way of his country of origin to be honest. It's one of the most corrupt on earth and has not made as much progress as expected ten years ago because of that. I do agree with the argument that raising NMW will only drive prices up and those on it will be exactly where they are now. The only way you can get higher wages is you have a skill which is such short supply that it cannot be easily found despite demand. So if cleaners, nurses all move out that will behold for remaining ones IYSWIM.

Jinsei out of interest what areas in London can you (typically) get a 1 bed for less than a grand PCM? No where I have looked, that is for sure.

I can't say what's typical for any particular area, but my parents own a couple of small rental properties in east London - don't want to say where, but they're in zone 3. Rent is around £700pcm, they're both one bed apartments. Small but in very good condition, nicely decorated and fully furnished. No tube station, which is why they're a bit cheaper, but the transport links are perfectly good.

I don't dispute that rents in London are crazy, but plenty of people do still live in the capital on lower incomes. As I said, I would like to see an increase in the NMW for all workers, it isn't a living wage in many places right now.

I don't think it's right that the government should have to subsidise private companies who don't pay a living wage to their staff, through benefits for the working poor. There has to be a better way.

I think there is scope for raising NMW countrywide, I'm a London resident and I think lots of people outside London don't realise just how expensive it is.

However, I really disagree with the idea of it being based on area. Surely that just traps the poorest people living in the poorest areas?

One bed properties are available:

Lewisham - £850 onwards (zone 2)
Catford - £800 onwards (zone 3)
Bromley - £900 onwards (zone 6)

"Bradfordstudioforrent
Londonstudioforrent
And I haven't put on the silly Mayfair studio flat that was £25'000 a week rent."

Why post such stupidly selective searches?

Who in reality is ever going to try and rent a £4800 pcm flat on NMW.

there are hundreds of places to live within 5 miles of that postcode for

One-bed about £395/month in Glasgow.

I pay my cleaner £10.50 an hour and they're over-subscribed, turning people away.

I know it's pretty easy to say move and a lot harder to actually do it - friends, family, connections etc.

But in the really nice wee newbuild estate where I live you can get a 2 bed terrace for £95k and a 4 bed detached for £170k.

I reckon more nmw workers should move out of London. Once the cleaners/retail workers/nursery staff just aren't there, it might hit home to the high level workers that the whole London-centric model in the uk isn't sustainable!

My council tax in South Wales is nearly a third higher than the top rate in Kensington. My local hospital can't even recruit well paid, highly senior roles because people simply don't want to move here. We have very high youth unemployment, a historic reason due to loss of industry and high rates of ill health and child poverty. Public transport is shocking and its stupidly expensive due to the mix of urban poverty and rural location.

This is not to say that the streets of London are paved with gold and my sympathies go out to anyone earning nmw as I know I couldn't survive on that. That said, at least in London there are more available jobs, public transport is relatively available and there are more chances. London already sucks a lot of life and great people away from hometowns across the UK, a living wage would be welcome everywhere, not just London.

psynl, I agree that the OP didn't use great examples, however if you actually look at the properties you've linked to, they are flat shares, often in 1 bedroom places. Also they are in areas which are not particularly pleasant or close to amenities (I know as i live very close by).

I think if you compared 1 bedroom, not shared, flats (most people outside of London wouldn't expect to live in shared accommodation long past student days) in Bradford and flats in London, and used two similar examples, in terms of proximity to the city centre, schools and other amenities there would quite obviously be a phenomenal price difference. I don't doubt you can find somewhere to live for £600pcm in London, but Ido think you would be hard pushed to find a 1 bedroom flat (sole residency) in central London for that price. Obviously I'd loved to be proved wrong but I think the opportunities are few and far between.

YABVU, higher wages would just lead to London's plague of scum-sucking estate agents trying to suck more money out of people, it doesn't translate into actual prosperity.

I don't understand why my examples were ridiculous.
They are both fairly central studio flats in the 2 cities methe was trying to compare.

"London is a proper city of two halves, I have recently spent a few days down there, you see for me I saw no shortage of very flash sports cars, no shortage of well groomed turned out folk, certainly no shortage of multi-million -flats- apartments selling, high end designer shops very busy, strikes me has a little odd that all these people think absolutely nothing about spending 200,000 on a car 2000 on a bag etc but pay the cleaner of their multi-million -flat- home 6.31 per hour to be honest if London and its folk have such little value on human service and value themselves so highly then it serves them right if their cleaner, window cleaner, nanny, coffee server etc up sticks and leave!"

Nannies and cleaners in London are paid more than £6.31 an hour.

"YABU. This country is too London-centric as it is. Why should Londoners be paid more for doing the same work as everyone else? And eventually trade in their 2-bed London house for a 5-bed house in (place away from London) when those who've always lived in (place) were only paid enough to retire in a 2-bed house there?"

Hun ( ) Londoners on NMW don't own 2 bed or even 1 bed houses/flats, they can barely pay rent.