to think that the minimum wage should be higher in London

[bottlenecker]

I really do not understand how the national minimum wage can possibly be the same in London as the rest of the country. How on earth can anyone live on that minimum wage?

London is a proper city of two halves, I have recently spent a few days down there, you see for me I saw no shortage of very flash sports cars, no shortage of well groomed turned out folk, certainly no shortage of multi-million -flats- apartments selling, high end designer shops very busy, strikes me has a little odd that all these people think absolutely nothing about spending 200,000 on a car 2000 on a bag etc but pay the cleaner of their multi-million -flat- home 6.31 per hour to be honest if London and its folk have such little value on human service and value themselves so highly then it serves them right if their cleaner, window cleaner, nanny, coffee server etc up sticks and leave!

The NMW is far too low everywhere, but the amount of millionaires and even billionaires in London would it really hurt them personally to pay a higher rate should it really need the government to say come on chaps the glass of champers has cost you more than your nanny who takes care of your off spring!

I have some sympathy for London NMW workers; round here, (Ayrshire) you can buy a property on NMW (£50-60k for 2/3 beds, nothing fancy but fine) but, because it's a rural area, goods can be more expensive, or you have to travel to find cheaper goods. Further north, everything is dearer because of transport costs. Should NMW be higher in further-flung parts of the country?

The people on £6.31 an hour live in London too! They would be paying higher for goods and services. So where would the benefit be?

Why make London a special case? Should NMW in Brighton be higher than in Barnsley? Should each town have its own rate of NMW? But even then there are posh areas and poor areas. Should they have their own rate of NMW too? Where does it end?

My point is, if the (N)MW were higher in London, even more people would commute....there would also need to be some sort of criteria that only people living in central London could be offered these higher paid minimum wage jobs.

"And raising the minimum wage to £15(?!?) in London and £11 elsewhere would cost millions or tens of millions of jobs to be economically unviable and removed"

Apologies, I should have been clearer- I plucked those figures out of the air. As I said, I think the NMW should be linked to housing costs in each area.

"But let let employers do it off their own back, the government should not need to be constantly interfering, most of the problems in this country are due to government interference, just look at the housing situation."

So, you disagree with the concept itself of a minimum wage?

And at spiralling housing costs being a result of too much government interference... Can you expand on this?

Yes, I do disagree with the concept of a minimum wage. There are far more people on low wages now than was the case before it was implemented. It's just pointless.

Housing prices have been kept artificially high by manipluating interest rates and also the benefits system. No-one should be claiming housing benefit while working, or housing benefit while out of work for that matter. Let the rates settle at what people can afford. People on benefits should just get a set rate, its up to them where they choose to live or who they choose to live with.

It's not true that you can't rent for less than £1000 per month in London.

London is expensive, no doubt, but so are many other parts of the country. I think the NMW should be raised across the country, so that it is a living wage everywhere.

"Let the rates settle at what people can afford. People on benefits should just get a set rate, its up to them where they choose to live or who they choose to live with."

Oh dear. I didn't realise this was the level you were arguing from. Apologies for trying to engage.

What would you raise it to Jinsei? And what would you say to the people who lost their jobs as a result of it rising?

What "level"? That is how things have worked for the vast majority of history in this country and the world over. If people can't afford to live and work somewhere, they move somewhere else. If employers in that region need the workers to stay, they raise their wages and make working conditions better. It's when governments get involved and start gerrymandering that the system all goes to pot and we have what we have now with low wages being topped up with tax credits and whole towns and cities with mass unemployment because the industries that caused the city to exist in the first place simply aren't there anymore.

Fayrae has a point about NMW bringing down wages. I was doing care work before they brought it in, and we were paid about 15-20p ph more than NMW at the time. Cue no wage rises till NMW matched what we were on. Since then, it's been NMW all the way.

I no longer do care work.

there is many places that it is difficult to live on Minimum wage as others have said it should be a living wage

"What "level"? That is how things have worked for the vast majority of history in this country and the world over."

Yes. And the poorest have starved to death in squalor for the vast majority of history in this country and the world over. But you know that. So I assume you see it as a fair trade-off for a free economy.

If people can't afford to live and work somewhere, they move somewhere else.

Just like that. Simple.

NMW underpays good workers and subsidises the bad ones - should be abolished. If companies/people want the 'essential' workers, they will pay for them. If it is too expensive, the company will re-locate outside London. NMW and benefits ensure London gets more expensive and the rest of the country suffers

LuisSuarezTeeth:

Yes, it really is that simple. That is how the world has worked, since the dawn of man. Why do you think cities like London, Manchester, New York etc become mighty cities? Because people thought they would fare better there than where they lived before, and they packed their bags and moved. Now we seem to have some kind of idea that cities are fixed in statis, regardless of the economics of the situation. And this is one of the major reasons (IMO) why the west is being overtaken by the east.

It's bit true for every industry. Hospitality used to pay well below the nmw rate before it came in. The workers definitely benefitted from the introduction and no jobs were lost as a result.

What tethers end said ^^
Free market hasn't worked in the passed as far a wages go.

It worked a lot better than the current system! We are all here today, after all!

Many people do have to relocate for work or financial reasons. Not sure why Londoners should be immune TBH.

Jinsei out of interest what areas in London can you (typically) get a 1 bed for less than a grand PCM? No where I have looked, that is for sure. A friend lives out in zone 6 and pays about £800 but that is so far out that I would hardly even call it london. Genuinely interested to know for reference (in case I ever do move back!) I would have said Peckham, penge etc and down that way but I bet they have shot up as well now that the transport links are better.

"It worked a lot better than the current system! We are all here today, after all!"

Yes! Apart from the millions who died from starvation. They're not.

fayrae - you seem to be ignoring the fact that there is a cost to moving, never mind practical difficulties.

Tens of millions of people will die from starvation/war/disease in this country the way we are going now. We have god knows how many people utterly reliant on benefits for a living. What happens when there is absolutely no money left and no-one will lend us any? Chaos, that's what. Civil war the likes of which the world has never seen. And it will happen all over the west unless someone has the balls to reel it in no matter how much people complain how unfair is it.

LuisSuarezTeeth: of course there is. You find the money somewhere. Beg, steal or borrow. Families club together. How on earth do you think the majority of the world copes?