to think that the minimum wage should be higher in London

[bottlenecker]

I really do not understand how the national minimum wage can possibly be the same in London as the rest of the country. How on earth can anyone live on that minimum wage?

"Londoners lives are no more important that anyone else's, no matter what they might like to tell themselves."

Methe, important? Seriously, I don't understand why you cannot see that it is important for the WHOLE country than the lowest paid and essential workers are not forced to leave the capital.
Essential workers are leaving now, you know this can have a detrimental effect on everyone right?

ODFOD

"I lived on NMW for a long time. It is a NATIONAL minimum wage. Londoners lives are no more important that anyone else's, no matter what they might like to tell themselves"

It's not about Londoners being more important; it's about affording workers on the NMW in London the same standard of living as those on NMW elsewhere. And that standard should be higher everywhere.

Surely a better suggestion would be to set a minimum wage for each council across the country that is based on how much it costs to live within their borders? (As in like for like lifestyles)

Or are we suggesting that the 2nd most expensive city in the country gets to just lump it and live on a wage that can't cover the bills?

Well the hospitality industry is kind of important all through the country. London has a few tourist you know, with a bit a cash (millions) that we need for our schools and hospitals and general running of the country.

I can get figures if it makes it clearer that yes, glass clearers are essential to our economy!!!!!

So are you suggesting that a person in London should get paid £11 per hour while a person in Bradford gets paid £3 for the same job?

Does that strike you as fair? Or reasonable?

Would you be happy about that situation of you live in Bradford and had 3 children to feed and rent to pay.

Last post was for Methe

You know other places have tourists too, right?

The world doesn't stop at the M25.

Lets not pretend anyone live on NMW.

Tax credits, HB, CBA, DLA and so forth - everything is topped up some how

"So are you suggesting that a person in London should get paid £11 per hour while a person in Bradford gets paid £3 for the same job?

Does that strike you as fair? Or reasonable?

Would you be happy about that situation of you live in Bradford and had 3 children to feed and rent to pay."

No, I am suggesting that the NMW is a living wage and in perhaps in Bradford would be £11ph and in London £15- the figures should be worked out against the cost of housing in the local area.

Flat, national rates are only fair if housing costs are capped. If they are not, wages should reflect this.

I absolutely agree. Noone is saying that life on the NMW is a bed of roses anywhere, but it is borderline impossible in London. Minimum wage jobs are essential to the London economy (and by extension the wider British economy). The alternatives aren't in anyone's interests:

• multiple people per room (overcrowding, knock on effect on other social and health problems which are expensive)
• busing people in from the home counties and beyond (strain on towns and villages outside London and their resources, pushes up demand in those areas and raises costs for everyone, additional strain on the road network)
• people in NMW jobs moving out of London: such jobs aren't exactly plentiful out of London, additional strain on regional jobs situations; shortage in important sectors eg hospitality, cleaning diminishing overall productivity in London

Methe, you clearly have a problem with either me or Londoners.

You seem to be purposely putting words into my mouth. Other cities are not losing their essential workers in droves.

Can you accept that it is much more expensive to live in London? Yes or no?

It's not that anyone thinks they're more "important" or than other cities don't have tourists. It's that London may not be able to serve its' tourists because essential workers are leaving.

I have a problem with anyone who thinks they are more important than anyone else.

I lived in London for 5 years and moved away. It's not impossible.

So people who work in the hospitality industry in central London should get paid more because tourists are essential?

This will only push London house prices higher.

I live within an hours commute by train to London, and know quite a few people who pop in to London daily. House prices here are less than in London, but as pay is higher in London, lots of people commute.

I fully expect DS1 to commute to London daily when he's an adult. I don't expect him to find affordable accommodation London, or a job paying what he deserves in this area.

There IS something special about London (well, the SE) - rent is 3 times higher than anywhere else. That's a much higher fraction taken out of the same wage.

Though I think increasing NMW just in London may have knock-on effects of propping up the already scandalously high rents and house prices, so although I sympathise with your sentiment, OP, I think it would be counterproductive in the longer-term.

"I lived in London for 5 years and moved away. It's not impossible."

Nobody is suggesting that individuals moving away is impossible. However, if all low paid workers moved away, the city would collapse. We are now getting closer to that being a reality if nothing is done.

"I live within an hours commute by train to London, and know quite a few people who pop in to London daily. House prices here are less than in London, but as pay is higher in London, lots of people commute."

Are any of them on NMW?

"I have a problem with anyone who thinks they are more important than anyone else."

Turn it around- why are those in Bradford on NMW more important than those in London on NMW? Why should they get to rent a house big enough for their family when Londoners can only afford a studio flat?

It's not about being 'more important'. It's about equality of a basic standard of living.

Methe

Who exactly thinks they are more important than anyone else?

lynnescavo

I doubt the people you are talking about are on NMW. Also people on NMW are far more likely to be working unsociable hours and might have no access to commute home at 6pm.

lynette by definition pay can't be higher in London if they are on NMW
The commuting option, when applied across all low paid workers isn't satisfactory because of the additional pressures on roads and other resources which I mentioned above and because the cost of commuting into London could wipe out the net benefit of moving out when someone is earning that little. Not to mention the fact that many NMW jobs have hours which don't work with national public transport systems and which are physically exhausting!

On an individual level, you could say to anyone on NMW "well move". The problem is that it's in no-ones interests for it to be applied across an entire demographic.

Bradfordstudioforrent

Londonstudioforrent

And I haven't put on the silly Mayfair studio flat that was £25'000 a week rent.

dancingwithmyself

Thank you for writing what I couldn't express very well.

I've been lurking on this forum for a few months but felt the need to register just to say how fucking stupid this thread is. Absolute ecomonic illiteracy of the worst kind. Raising the NMW in London higher than the rest of the country would just further entrench the N/S, or London/elsewhere divide. And raising the minimum wage to £15(?!?) in London and £11 elsewhere would cost millions or tens of millions of jobs to be economically unviable and removed. Someone whose labour adds £8 of value per hour to their company can't be paid £11 or £15 an hour. The job would simply be automated or outsourced. It is not the governments job to give everyone a "nice life", as much as some people would like that to be the case! If you want a job that pays £15 an hour, gain the skills that will allow you to provide work of more than this value to your employer!

fayrae

You may have called my opinion "fucking stupid" and "absolute economic illiteracy" but companies managed to pay their managers higher salaries in London so why not their low level workers?
The FT debated this not so long ago so maybe my idea is not totally unworthy of debate.

Financial Times
London needs higher minimum wage, says report
By James Pickford, London and southeast correspondent
London should have a higher minimum wage than the rest of the country, according to research that suggests raising the mandatory rate by 7 per cent in the capital would have no ill effects on jobs and competitiveness. ...

The managers labour is worth more to the company than the low level workers whose skills are not in short supply.

For too long now governments have merely tried to tackle the symptoms of economic inequality instead of the root cause. It just kicks the can down the road for some future government to deal with later, when the problem will have grown far worse. If people cannot afford to live and work in London, they will not live in work in London, and necessary jobs will not get done and the city will suffer. But this won't happen because companies will be forced to raise their wages in order to attract staff. But let let employers do it off their own back, the government should not need to be constantly interfering, most of the problems in this country are due to government interference, just look at the housing situation.