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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that we are in a new Victorian era of exploitation by the rich of everyone else

167 replies

AgaPanthers · 18/03/2014 00:56

And with full government support.

Examples:

Who benefits? Not the 7 or more people living in one of the shittiest, crime-ridden cesspits in Europe that is Slough, the owner of the house who boasts 'A Fantastic 14% Yield (Which bank will give you that for your money?) '

14% yield on farming poor people. My bank (fully government bailed out to the tune of hundreds of billions of pounds of taxpayer cash) gives me 0.5% on my savings.

  • Indentured immigrant labour - business owners don't want to pay people a wage sufficient to have the basic living standards that campaigners fought from the early years of this century onwards to guarantee to every full-time worker. Minimum wage cannot possibly support a family in large areas of the country.

So business owners campaign for unlimited immigration, because otherwise there aren't enough people desperate enough to take their sub-poverty line pay: www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/let-more-immigrants-into-uk-because-brits-wont-take-our-jobs-says-dominos-pizza-boss-8992388.html

Australian billionaire Rupert Murdoch's rag The Sun ran a large feature on how worthless and lazy British workers are, on Friday, because there aren't enough of them (in Murdoch's view) willing to work for sub-poverty line wages: twitter.com/StigAbell/status/444802994891423744

  • Low pay subsidies - business owners don't want to pay a sufficient wage, so the government subsidises them in this with tax credits, paid to workers who would otherwise be unwilling to work for poverty-level wages.

  • The great property scam - house prices are beyond all records in terms of income multiples, affordability in terms of wages vs. mortgage payments. This impoverishes everyone in society except for the oldest (who bought their homes for nothing years ago), and who, by no coincidence whatsoever, are most likely to vote, and wealthy landowners (who own more property than they need, and therefore can sell it off at inflated prices to serfs), as ever larger debt repayments are made to banks and to the largest landowners.

Gidiot announced today that the taxpayer will underwrite house builders (big donors to his party) to sell off their shitty newbuild houses at ludicrous debt slave valuations until at least 2020: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26611163

Politicians of all parties support all aspects of this.

We had a post-war 'consensus' between the two major parties. Those who were born with everything would pay higher taxes in order to give opportunity to those born with nothing.

This consensus was smashed by Thatcher, who claimed to represent the little man, selling Sid a couple of hundred British Gas shares, and his council house, but also shutting down any industry that didn't turn a profit every year.

The men of Merthyr Tydfil, once employed in their thousands by the town's coal and steel mills were put out to pasture in the 1980s, with vast numbers never working again, moved onto a diet of anti-depressants and incapacity benefits (news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4217648.stm) by a government that did not care to acknowledge the true scale of unemployment, as it sought to 'restructure' the country from one where most people were paid decent wages for their labour to one based on financial services, where the productive worker is nothing more than a cost centre, to be screwed into the ground, outsourced to India or, more recently, replaced with low-paid foreign labour.

It took Fettes-and-St-John's-Oxford-educated Blair to entrench this Thatcherite consensus permanently. He opened the doors to unlimited low-paid labour from Europe, and introduced the 'zero-hour contract'. He loaded up his 'portfolio' with dozens of 'investment properties', which his policies drove through the roof.

He consorted with crooks, floating around the Mediterranean with rich men whose only moral compass was to be found steering their 150-foot yachts.

He encouraged them to bring their capital, acquired under circumstances that are best not examined, to London, where it could be parked, subject only to the lightest of taxation, in buildings built by their spiritual predecessors, the pre-20th century land-owners, who acquired their wealth by Act of Parliament or royal whim, seizing it from those whose families had worked it for centuries.

His successor, Gordon Brown, formalised these men's tax-free residency, the so-called 'non-dom' status, with the payment of a nominal fee, which made legal and permanent the avoidance of millions of pounds in taxes.

Blair & his cronies were finally were replaced in 2010 by the new Conservative Party, remoulded in Blair's image and, to a man, from backgrounds of extraordinary privilege. Unlike their 20th century political aristocratic antecedents, the likes of Lord Douglas-Home, who might also come from aristocratic backgrounds, the sense that the Lord had some sort of paternal duty towards his men, had long since been abandoned, prey to the forces of 'greed is good' and globalisation.

The new government set out to redouble its predecessor's efforts in support of exploitation, offering business unpaid labour in the shape of 'Workfare', an initiative originating from a man, who unlike 'Sunman' trying out minimum-wage labour while earning a £150k/year salary, had no financial need to perform a day's work in his entire life, a man who claimed that people ENJOYED paying 40% tax, because it made them feel wealthy. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2581860/Osborne-People-paying-40p-tax-feel-joining-aspirational-classes-success-Tory-MPs-accuse-Chancellor-insulting-middle-earners.htm Never mind that such earnings are insufficient to buy a small flat in Del Boy's Peckham, and that paying 40% tax, in Osborne's world, is only for the suckers subject to PAYE, with the truly wealthy able to employ lawyers and accountants to keep their taxes down to fraction of that figure.

AIBU to say that we have the most exploitative society in generations, and that it's only going to get worse?

OP posts:
psynl · 19/03/2014 00:40

Among the richest poor in the world.

And to say it like it makes everything ok?
Yes there's always worse off. that's a given obv.
but your posting that, 'unless your bottom of the pile, shut up whining'

poverty is relative, and we don't live in Africa, I (and many others) couldn't afford to go there and if we did, what would you be expecting us to do?
unless your richer or selfless you can't help somebody else!

this thread could be about the poor of ANY country that has its inherent wealth unfairly divided.

and please don't misunderstand me. I think the greatest injustice in the history of the world is that we feed to cows enough corn to satisfy world hunger just to create beef whilst people starve. because its 'not as profitable to feed humans'.

Suzannewithaplan · 19/03/2014 00:47

'My own mil bought holiday lets in Llangollen and she makes a bundle out of them. She said its her pension but its people like her driving the prices up. It's not right at all'

she's just making a rational decision to look after her financial future, the problem is with the legal and economic system which incentivises this kind of thing

PatrickStarisabadbellend · 19/03/2014 00:59

She owns many homes. It's pure greed.

AgaPanthers · 19/03/2014 00:59

Absolutely right. Individuals are not the problem, it's the framework they act in.

For example, Gordon Brown increased tax on shares for pension funds.

The result is people started looking for other areas to invest. Some, like gold, are relatively benign things to speculate on.

Others, such as housing, should not become financial playthings.

OP posts:
traininthedistance · 19/03/2014 01:07

Suzannewithaplan but it isn't just social and financial incentives to do so; there's also a groupthink that legitimises what is essentially an antisocial activity (making a profit from a basic need). Until quite recently landlordism was thought of as quite grubby and Rachmanesque (unless you were an upper-class landowner); something faintly immoral that respectable professional people didn't do and not how they earned their money (see the portrayal of the landlord in Rising Damp for example). It's only in the 2000s during the housing boom that being a landlord has acquired this false social glamour. The desire to be a landlord has been made attractive to people and the antisocial consequences thus ignored, to make it seem like people were just making a rational economic choice. No-one is forcing people to be one buy to let landlords. They do it because of greed - because they want to make money out of it despite knowing it is profiting directly out of others' inability to buy the same necessity/good - to say they have to do it is a post hoc rationalisation of rent-seeking behaviour.

But lots of antisocial (though legal) ways of making money are available to people and they still don't do them; it might be a rational economic choice for poor people to become prostitutes but most don't. It's not a rational economic choice at the moment to work in an altruistic profession, or to give to charity, but lots of people do. However if a climate is created that makes it okay for large numbers of people to seek profit at the expense of others - well, some do so. Doesn't make the social consequences any better though. And it's particularly stupid given past and recent history to assume that the housing market is always going to be a one-way bet. When the bubble finally bursts (as it has done most other places apart from the UK and Australia), then holiday lets might not look to have been the wisest pension plan.

Beavie · 19/03/2014 01:17

Yanbu.

Excellent post. I don't think it's ever been much different, it has always been the bourgeoisie exploiting the proletariat. We are conditioned from a very young age to through the education system to believe that this is just and right.

A revolution is definitely needed. The only way this will ever stop is abolition of social stratification, a bit radical I know. But that won't happen. It's shit for us and I'm even more scared for what our kids will be dealing with.

traininthedistance · 19/03/2014 01:17

Agreed Patrickstar - I'm not fond of bankers but I also don't like this excusing of lots of ordinary people by saying they were slaves to the banks / didn't understand / were forced to buy flats to rent by Gordon Brown etc. I was here during the last decade; I remember the sheer slavering glued-to-Homes-Under-The-Hammer wannabe property miwwwionaires bubble talk, ordinary people watching Location Location desperate to flip property and become rich with a buy to let empire, talking endlessly about their house prices; I rented from landlords who went on and on about "professional" tenants "paying top dollar" for manky flats in which they'd installed some cheap laminate and painted magnolia in the expectation that this had made them Alan Sugar; there was and still is in some parts of the country a general fever of greed and hand-rubbing panting over speculating in property that was and is extremely unappealing and unpalatable, and we've all seen it on TV and in real life. The idea that ordinary people were not motivated by greed but a grim selfless rational choice about property investment is laughable -- " it pains me but I know I must hold my nose and buy that newbuild flat, mea culpa but it hurts me more than it hurts you, I only do it out of the goodness of my heart to save the government the onerous task of paying out my state pension" kind of thing Hmm

Suzannewithaplan · 19/03/2014 01:19

Train, yes I agree with what you say...it's a bit of a chicken and egg argument.
Or perhaps nature/nurture is a better analogy?
Either way various strands of influence interact and feed into each other in multiple complex ways.

Suzannewithaplan · 19/03/2014 01:26

prhaps Im being too soft on the mil, she's just an average Joanne who is wont to be greedy given the opportunity.

I propose that the govt what gave 'er the opportunity to be greedy should bear the brunt of the blame

AgaPanthers · 19/03/2014 01:26

Hmm, traininthedistance I'm not sure if there are many legal + antisocial ways of making real money.

The majority of the population wouldn't make a good income from prostitution, and it is a dangerous job, which is constrained by the amount of time you have to devote to it.

BTL has been so thoroughly drummed into the British psyche now, that there really is nothing else comparable. Of course now the income, net of costs, is very poor in many areas, so people are speculating on capital rises only in many cases, but how many other ways does the ordinary person have to make some money, outside of their day-to-day employment?

Savings accounts offer negative real returns.

I own some shares, they pay me 3% or so in dividends, which is probably better than BTL, but with less work, and in the long term the should maintain or increase their real capital values, BUT you cannot buy shares on a mortgage, so you are restricted to your savings from employment as to what you can put in.

That's the key really - property speculators can put up very little money of their own, get the mortgage paid by the tenants, and then use the capital increase to buy more in a couple of years.

Then you've got 'doing up houses' as a job (which runs hand-in-hand with the immigration issue, since those doing it frequently comment that they will 'get some Poles in' to do the work), and very lucrative it can be too - buy a house, a bit of B+Q laminate, a few pots of paints, a new bathroom suite, and an extension on the back and then you can stick £150k on the price.

Nothing wrong in itself with making homes more liveable, but there is a problem for society when doing this kind of speculative activity is so much more remunerative than normal employment.

Property is now seen as completely risk-free, the worst case being that you just let your house for a couple of years until prices go up again. Conversely anyone investing 50,000 into the stock market is warned they could lose it, and that they need to be investing for a minimum of 10 years.

The result of a market seen as without risk, in large part due to the government's word and deed, is that prices grow beyond any rational level, because if the government will apparently never allow prices to fall, then no price can ever be too high, even if it is unaffordable for anyone without existing skin in the game.

OP posts:
Dinosaursareextinct · 19/03/2014 01:28

Yes Beavie, and add on global warming to what our kids will be dealing with. It will be hell.
I would like to declare war on arrogant urbane landlords, for starters.

Dinosaursareextinct · 19/03/2014 01:29

You're talking about the housing bubble in London though, Aga. Around here it is extremely difficult to sell and sellers are losing vast amounts of money.

AgaPanthers · 19/03/2014 01:30

Where's that, dinosaurs?

OP posts:
Suzannewithaplan · 19/03/2014 01:34

because if the government will apparently never allow prices to fall, then no price can ever be too high
if we take that to it's logical (if absurd) conclusion then we will surely have mass homelessness and social collapse, which is surely not in the interests of the uk govt?

traininthedistance · 19/03/2014 01:50

Aga, sure there are plenty of ways of making money legally but anti socially, from commodity price speculation to Babestation to logging to puppy farming to asset stripping businesses to sex chatlines to selling ringtones to teenagers to profiting off low-paid care workers - it merely depends on just how socially sanctioned a particular practice is. And it's only because buy to let happened to be fashionable and apparently very profitable at a specific moment that it has seemed okay to make it into a legitimate kind of financial speculation. Lots of things have seemed to ordinary people to offer the only real chance to make money - many ordinary people thought they could make fortunes speculating in stock in nineteenth century railroad bubbles, for example. The fact that we think buy to let is an immutable way to make money is merely a historical chimera. And it won't seem so if and when the housing bubble bursts.

Friend of a friend got rich by running one of those text services that get advertised on cheap telly channels - "if you want to chat with girls in their twenties text blah now" kind of thing. Men texted what they thought were "stunning blondes in your area" or "sexy milfs" etc. but actually the replies were all generated by a software program watched over by a couple of hairy IT grads.. No actual replies from live women were ever guaranteed by the small print. Totally legal; I'll leave it up to you to decide how antisocial it was! Not a business I could ever get involved in even if I had the skill; but I'm sure some would argue that it fulfils a legitimate niche in the "market" Hmm

traininthedistance · 19/03/2014 01:53

NB should be "hairy MALE IT grads" Grin

CelticPromise · 19/03/2014 07:40

Suzanne in some areas (London certainly) that is exactly what you'd have, if there weren't cheaper areas to ship the poor people off to.

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