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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that we are in a new Victorian era of exploitation by the rich of everyone else

167 replies

AgaPanthers · 18/03/2014 00:56

And with full government support.

Examples:

Who benefits? Not the 7 or more people living in one of the shittiest, crime-ridden cesspits in Europe that is Slough, the owner of the house who boasts 'A Fantastic 14% Yield (Which bank will give you that for your money?) '

14% yield on farming poor people. My bank (fully government bailed out to the tune of hundreds of billions of pounds of taxpayer cash) gives me 0.5% on my savings.

  • Indentured immigrant labour - business owners don't want to pay people a wage sufficient to have the basic living standards that campaigners fought from the early years of this century onwards to guarantee to every full-time worker. Minimum wage cannot possibly support a family in large areas of the country.

So business owners campaign for unlimited immigration, because otherwise there aren't enough people desperate enough to take their sub-poverty line pay: www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/let-more-immigrants-into-uk-because-brits-wont-take-our-jobs-says-dominos-pizza-boss-8992388.html

Australian billionaire Rupert Murdoch's rag The Sun ran a large feature on how worthless and lazy British workers are, on Friday, because there aren't enough of them (in Murdoch's view) willing to work for sub-poverty line wages: twitter.com/StigAbell/status/444802994891423744

  • Low pay subsidies - business owners don't want to pay a sufficient wage, so the government subsidises them in this with tax credits, paid to workers who would otherwise be unwilling to work for poverty-level wages.

  • The great property scam - house prices are beyond all records in terms of income multiples, affordability in terms of wages vs. mortgage payments. This impoverishes everyone in society except for the oldest (who bought their homes for nothing years ago), and who, by no coincidence whatsoever, are most likely to vote, and wealthy landowners (who own more property than they need, and therefore can sell it off at inflated prices to serfs), as ever larger debt repayments are made to banks and to the largest landowners.

Gidiot announced today that the taxpayer will underwrite house builders (big donors to his party) to sell off their shitty newbuild houses at ludicrous debt slave valuations until at least 2020: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26611163

Politicians of all parties support all aspects of this.

We had a post-war 'consensus' between the two major parties. Those who were born with everything would pay higher taxes in order to give opportunity to those born with nothing.

This consensus was smashed by Thatcher, who claimed to represent the little man, selling Sid a couple of hundred British Gas shares, and his council house, but also shutting down any industry that didn't turn a profit every year.

The men of Merthyr Tydfil, once employed in their thousands by the town's coal and steel mills were put out to pasture in the 1980s, with vast numbers never working again, moved onto a diet of anti-depressants and incapacity benefits (news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4217648.stm) by a government that did not care to acknowledge the true scale of unemployment, as it sought to 'restructure' the country from one where most people were paid decent wages for their labour to one based on financial services, where the productive worker is nothing more than a cost centre, to be screwed into the ground, outsourced to India or, more recently, replaced with low-paid foreign labour.

It took Fettes-and-St-John's-Oxford-educated Blair to entrench this Thatcherite consensus permanently. He opened the doors to unlimited low-paid labour from Europe, and introduced the 'zero-hour contract'. He loaded up his 'portfolio' with dozens of 'investment properties', which his policies drove through the roof.

He consorted with crooks, floating around the Mediterranean with rich men whose only moral compass was to be found steering their 150-foot yachts.

He encouraged them to bring their capital, acquired under circumstances that are best not examined, to London, where it could be parked, subject only to the lightest of taxation, in buildings built by their spiritual predecessors, the pre-20th century land-owners, who acquired their wealth by Act of Parliament or royal whim, seizing it from those whose families had worked it for centuries.

His successor, Gordon Brown, formalised these men's tax-free residency, the so-called 'non-dom' status, with the payment of a nominal fee, which made legal and permanent the avoidance of millions of pounds in taxes.

Blair & his cronies were finally were replaced in 2010 by the new Conservative Party, remoulded in Blair's image and, to a man, from backgrounds of extraordinary privilege. Unlike their 20th century political aristocratic antecedents, the likes of Lord Douglas-Home, who might also come from aristocratic backgrounds, the sense that the Lord had some sort of paternal duty towards his men, had long since been abandoned, prey to the forces of 'greed is good' and globalisation.

The new government set out to redouble its predecessor's efforts in support of exploitation, offering business unpaid labour in the shape of 'Workfare', an initiative originating from a man, who unlike 'Sunman' trying out minimum-wage labour while earning a £150k/year salary, had no financial need to perform a day's work in his entire life, a man who claimed that people ENJOYED paying 40% tax, because it made them feel wealthy. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2581860/Osborne-People-paying-40p-tax-feel-joining-aspirational-classes-success-Tory-MPs-accuse-Chancellor-insulting-middle-earners.htm Never mind that such earnings are insufficient to buy a small flat in Del Boy's Peckham, and that paying 40% tax, in Osborne's world, is only for the suckers subject to PAYE, with the truly wealthy able to employ lawyers and accountants to keep their taxes down to fraction of that figure.

AIBU to say that we have the most exploitative society in generations, and that it's only going to get worse?

OP posts:
vickibee · 18/03/2014 14:16

We have a social responsibility to look after the vulnerble in our sociey, collectively as a population paid for form the public purse. I Live in Barnsley and it is deprived but this stems from having low paid unskilled jobs. Since the demise of mining in our area there are no jobs for manual workers and no investment in infrastructure either. No will frmm Westminster to change anything up North. Let the SE thrive and the rest of the UK decline...

Ubik1 · 18/03/2014 14:26

Oh so it's your dad that's rich. Well...whatever.

But the fact is that there is massive inequality. Yes there are major employers who are responsible, who are philanthropic, who pay fair wages...but you must see the the current government is presiding over policies which alliw the gap between rich and poor to widen?

In parts of Glasgow the average life expectancy fir a man is 57. Not even nearly retirement age.

vickibee · 18/03/2014 14:28

Believe the avg wage in Barnsly is 14K per annum, lots of low paid part-time rubbish jobs

AgaPanthers · 18/03/2014 14:42

vickibee, I don't think its even SE vs North. The SE is told that it is thriving, as part of the overall divide and rule strategy, but I don't see it personally. The house in my OP is in the SE. The SE has taken in several million low-paid workers from eastern Europe. The likes of Tony Blair can employ a 'Polish builder' to dig out his basement, at a reduced cost. The likes of Fergus Wilson can evict people from his shitty buy-to-let houses: www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jan/04/buy-to-let-landlord-evicts-housing-benefit-tenants in favour of said 'Polish builders'.

If you take a look around London, you will find many families on apparently high salaries, living in small flats with children. Vast chunks of their incomes are paid straight to a landlord or to the bank for their mortgage. They are attracted by the promise of higher salaries, but end up paying all of it over to the wealthy, told that they must work even harder if they hope to one day 'succeed', even though the terms of that success have been hugely redefined. A couple of decades ago, they could reasonably aspire to live in a middle-class suburb, now 'success' (a concept that must be repeatedly re-affirmed, because it might not seem that way sometimes) might be a gigantic million-pound debt to the Bank on a terrace in Brixton.

They are told that they are 'very lucky' to be able to buy a home to live in, even a tiny flat in Peckham: www.woosterstock.co.uk/details/11751, because their parents have lent them a deposit upon which to build an even larger debt to the bank.

Now the Tories want more people to go out to work, so that they can afford ever larger debts to Gidiot's banker chums, and have offered parents £2,000 - not money they can spend, mind - in childcare discounts: www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/budget-2014-childcare-tax-break-worth-up-to-2000-unveiled-by-government-9198810.html, to try and persuade them to do so.

OP posts:
propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS · 18/03/2014 14:43

Yanbu.

gretagrape · 18/03/2014 14:44

YANBU - I agree with 99% of your post but as a tiny aside, I don't like this need for the media and people in general to resent my parents' generation because they have (almost) enough money to enjoy their retirement - they worked bloody hard, saved money before they bought something, didn't go on holiday for years at a time and didn't have a million pieces of useless gadgetry and on top of that had half their pensions eradicated by the banking crisis and subsequent fall in their shares just as their annuities were about to mature.

The great property scam - house prices are beyond all records in terms of income multiples, affordability in terms of wages vs. mortgage payments. This impoverishes everyone in society except for the oldest (who bought their homes for nothing years ago)

They didn't buy them for nothing - when my parents bought their house for £10k their joint earnings were £2k so 5x their salary, pretty much the same as my mortgage...and they had to provide a 25% deposit which took years to save up.

Someone else also wrote:

I read somewhere that 20% of the benefits bill goes on people who are working.

This isn't new - my Dad worked for a national bank in the 70's and some of his colleagues (cashier level) were claiming some form of benefit (whatever it would have been called back then) because their wages were so low.

Other than that, I agree with it all. It's bloody depressing - even people I know who are diehard Tories say they have no idea who they can vote for now because there is no party they view as credible and trustworthy anymore. It's scary because it increases the likelihood of protest voting and the fringe /extremist parties gaining seats and creating even more division in society. I agree that we need a "none of the above" on all ballot papers and for compulsory voting to be brought in.

gretagrape · 18/03/2014 14:50

Also agree that the view that SE is affluent isn't representative. I considered moving to Brighton from the Midlands a while ago but the wages in Brighton were pitiful whilst the house prices were astronomical - just wasn't feasible.

Lazyjaney · 18/03/2014 14:51

Agree with most of it OP, IMO the fundamental answer is decent wages - work has to pay well compared to not working.

The problem is starting from here, if we crank wages up too fast, a bunch of businesses flee or fold.

Also we need to become more productive to make it sustainable, that means investment in public and private infrastructure, neither of which is on the map right now, it needs a major push.

It also requires more control on products and people coming into the country so it's harder to undercut here - but not too much protection

I do think a major raid on the bankers is required to get a windfall to make a step change, and then a reform of the banking system - but I do think both bloated welfare costs and the giveaways to the very wealthy must be tackled to get wide public support, there are both undeserving poor and undeserving rich. Welfare has to go back to being a safety net, not a lifestyle right, once there is work available.

New Deal here we come....

sisterofmercy · 18/03/2014 15:00

softlysoftly - Philanthropists like your dad are few and far between, sadly, although admittedly many eschew publicity. I don't know if your dad allows his name to be connected with his good works but it might influence others invest in their local communities a bit more.

(I'd rather there was less of a gap between rich and poor so that philanthropy wasn't needed but that seems impossible at the moment.)

TroelsNextCampaignManager · 18/03/2014 15:01

There is a perception that if you are in a job/ run a business/ live in the SE then you're OK and feel "I'm alright Jack". Not necessarily true - lots of people are impacted by bosses taking completely undeserved remuneration packages while laying off or depressing the wages of employees and can see that it is an increasing problem in society.

EG lots of people in comparatively well-paid jobs who have not had a pay rise in years, who have lost CB and are dealing with increased bills etc. Are they on the breadline and using foodbanks? No, but neither do they feel affluent as they have seen their quality of life and disposable income continually reduce. And as Aga has just pointed out, they can be paying completely stupid money to rent or buy a shoebox to live in. The numbers and exact situations may be different, but they have the same cause.

Similarly, there are bosses who can see that wage inequality is having a negative impact on the UK/ global economy and will want to change tack, but they are competing against other bosses/businesses who don't have a conscience. And so the race to the bottom continues.

The whole thing is a pack of cards, it really is.

TroelsNextCampaignManager · 18/03/2014 15:09

that should have been house of cards...

also - janey - we should be careful what we wish for when it comes to the bankers - lots of ordinary workers in the sector whose jobs are also at risk and NY has already overtaken London as the world's leading financial centre...

AgaPanthers · 18/03/2014 15:11

"YANBU - I agree with 99% of your post but as a tiny aside, I don't like this need for the media and people in general to resent my parents' generation because they have (almost) enough money to enjoy their retirement - they worked bloody hard, saved money before they bought something, didn't go on holiday for years at a time and didn't have a million pieces of useless gadgetry and on top of that had half their pensions eradicated by the banking crisis and subsequent fall in their shares just as their annuities were about to mature."

Don't agree.

'They worked bloody hard'

Actually they didn't work as hard as the present generation. In the past it was normal for a family to live off a man's income. That's changed now, women are working whereas they didn't (to the same degree) in the past. The government has tricked people into doing more work, for a smaller share of the pie.

'saved money before they bought something,'

Well yes, lucky for them debt wasn't marketed on TV in those days. It's not some sort of moral superiority.

'didn't go on holiday for years at a time'

People used to go on holiday to Blackpool, or Bournemouth. Now it can be cheaper to go to Benidorm. Relative costs of different things have changed. That doesn't mean that today's population are worthless and lazy, because they don't follow 1950s spending paterns.

' didn't have a million pieces of useless gadgetry '

That's because the gadgetry didn't exist. But the implication that if only these young people would stop wasting money on shiny crap they could afford to be a good debt slave, is quite a nasty one.

Not spending £400 on an iPad, or £100 on a mobile phone is not going to make a £500,000 council flat affordable. It just doesn't stack up.

'on top of that had half their pensions eradicated by the banking crisis and subsequent fall in their shares just as their annuities were about to mature.'

Well my parents are on final salary pensions, as are many others their age. There's no chance for that anyone of my generation. There are no cuts to state pensions, because pensioners vote, and in great numbers.

'They didn't buy them for nothing - when my parents bought their house for £10k their joint earnings were £2k so 5x their salary, pretty much the same as my mortgage...and they had to provide a 25% deposit which took years to save up.'

But that £10,000 was inflated away to nothing in a few short years. You put down the deposit, made the payments for three years, and in that time wages had doubled. We don't have any prospect of that now.

If I borrow £780,000 to buy this tiny labourer's cottage:

www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-43300672.html

how many years into the future do you suppose a £780,000 mortgage will become a mere trifle?

In 1997 (then worth around £100,000), the mortgage payments on that house would have been less than half of the national average salary. Now they would be double the average salary. These homes were built for the poor, now they are unaffordable even by the rich.

OP posts:
JadedAngel · 18/03/2014 15:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Technotropic · 18/03/2014 15:34

The government has tricked people into doing more work, for a smaller share of the pie.

Really?

So women deciding to go out to work is down to the government tricking them into it Hmm. I like to think its down to women realising that they can make an equally positive contribution to the uk workforce as men. The only downside to this is that you cannot expect the economy to double the number of available jobs to cater for such a significant increase in workforce. That's not blaming women but it is a fact that a lot of couples are now working full time.

As an aside my kids are now heading into double figures but we quite happily raised both with a single income of around £25k for many years (in bucks). Living off a single income is doable, it's just that people don't want to.

uselessidiot · 18/03/2014 15:39

YANBU, I used to believe I was a human being. It has been made very clear to me that I am not a human being, not proper human person at all :(. I hate being viewed as lazy. I hate being made to feel guilty just for existing. Even worse, I hate being told my children have no right to exist, they've done nothing wrong. They're just children. They're only crime is to be born to scum like me and they didn't choose that.

Technotropic · 18/03/2014 15:52

Uselessidiot

But why ware you taking any notice of what the media says? IMHO people in this country are too easily led by the opinions of others. I find it easier to not give a toss about what others think and that's really quite useful as these opinions are worth jack anyway.

Just concentrate on whatever you're doing and put your energy into making sure your kids improve on whatever lifestyle they have now.

uselessidiot · 18/03/2014 16:04

I do do that techno but it's precisely because so many people believe and take notice that it's an issue. It's not only the media who've told me I'm scum. I do work very hard. At least in my eyes I do. However proper people don't view it as hard work as my work has no value to society therefore is not proper work. At least so I'm told.

MamaMary · 18/03/2014 17:09

A large part of the problem that led to the rich-poor divide was the scrapping of grammar schools.

John Carey, Professor of English literature at Cambridge and grammar-educated, recently said that if grammar schools had not been done away with, the current Eton-ring Cabinet in government would not have existed.

Grammars ensured a much truer meritocracy, where bright and hard-working kids from a poor background got a decent education and a leg-up into a decent university - including Oxbridge, where Carey went. That ended as soon as private schools began to divide the 'haves' from the 'have-nots', leaving the 'have-nots' to languish in poorer schools with fewer resources.

So yes, a typical UK issue - class.

MamaMary · 18/03/2014 17:11

And Tony Blair entrenched the divide further by abolishing university maintenance grants and introducing fees - thus making it even harder for the less wealthy to get a decent education.

An utter scandal if you ask me.

expatinscotland · 18/03/2014 17:11

YANBU

vickibee · 18/03/2014 17:25

the good thing about being up North is cheaper property, we paid £167K for a 4 bed Edwardian Semi. I don't know how people afford homes in London, renting or buying. Wages must be huge?

Viviennemary · 18/03/2014 17:27

I think it is madness to talk about fairness or equality while we still have a royal family.

AgaPanthers · 18/03/2014 17:27

I don't think London wages are that huge. Mostly people cram themselves into smaller houses to compensate. Or rent. More than half of London rents their homes.

OP posts:
vickibee · 18/03/2014 17:30

Who owns them then? private individuals or social LLs?

Badvoc · 18/03/2014 17:34

There was a thread on here recently about how we should prepare our kids in case of hunger games scenario.
It was funny at the time.
I don't find all that funny anymore tbh....
:(