Was I Unreasonable to this child?

[iamsoannoyed]

I was at a party with DD (aged 5)- she was a guest, not her party. It was at a place which has a soft play area beside the cafe (party rooms upstairs). The children had just played ten-pin bowling, and were coming through to play in the soft play area.

I was sitting with some of the other mums having coffee when one of DDs friends, whose mum I am reasonably friendly with and has been to our house/DD has been to hers, came over. She poked me in the stomach and said "haha, your kid came last". Those were her exact words.

I was a . I said to her "please don't talk to me like that, it's very rude. And you can't be the best at everything, so it's not very kind to tease people for being last.". I did not shout or raise my voice and did not get out of my chair.

She went red, ran off and I thought no more of it.

Her granny had brought her to the party. I don't think granny had noticed this exchange, but one of the other mums did and we both just raised an eyebrow. This little girl has been known to throw strops with the other children if she doesn't get her way and is also known as a bit of a madam at times, but is basically a normal little girl.

I got a phone call tonight from the girls mum to say she was very cross that I had "disciplined" her daughter. She thought I should have waited until I got home and then called her to raise my concerns.

I explained what had happened, and stated while I thought it was rude and fairly unpleasant behaviour on her DDs part and she needed a reminder that you shouldn't speak to adults like that, I didn't think it warranted a phone call home after the party (and hours after the "incident") as that was just making a mountain out of a molehill. Had the girl's mother been there, I would have mentioned what had happened.

I imagine her DD would probably have forgotten all about the incident by the end of the party, and would have been a bit confused as to what the fuss was about.

Was I unreasonable? I really genuinely don't think I was.

I would expect any other adult to have acted similarly if my DD had spoken to them like this (and would have been fairly mortified that she had done so).

TBH, I think I should just avoid play dates with DD and this girl, as I will not have a child in my house who I cannot even ask to behave in an acceptable manner in my own home in case her parents are upset by this.

I think you were a bit ott tbh.

I don't feel op was harsh or I tented to have that reaction in the child.

I agree.

I have done the same with childminded children but I have recognised that I misjudged the power of my words and taken steps to repair the relationship without allowing that to detract from the message I was trying to convey.

I've also tried to learn from those occasions how to temper my approach so as not to cause unnecessary upset and embarrassment but I'm not a mind reader either and children's reactions can be hard to predict.

I'm sure this little girl has learned from her experience and I sincerely hope that her mother has helped her by explaining why the OP responded as she did, even though she doesn't agree with it. I suspect she may have given her DD a very different message but, even then, the child will have learned something.

I wonder if this mother would have been so angry if a teacher had said the same things to her DD.

I'm intrigued - and dismayed - that several posters think in no circumstances should the OP have spoken to the child in any way which would suggest that her behaviour was not nice. I was going to write her behaviour was 'bad' but suspect using such a 'judgemental' word would provoke similar responses!

If it is not ok to tell a nearly 6 year old child that it is not acceptable to poke anyone - adult or child - in the stomach to get attention, then at what age is it acceptable? 8, 10, 15 or just when the school or police call you? Why is it not ok to tell a child who is being rude that they are being rude? That is surely far more helpful to the child - it is clear, it was not aggressive, it was immediate. The child can then clearly know and understand why her behaviour met with disapproval. I shudder at the thought, as one poster thinks, that we should not tell off unpleasantly behaved children who are delieberately being unpleasant (and the child sought out the OP to gloat that 'your kid came last') in case that kind of behaviour is not considered unacceptable in their own family. In some families bullying is acceptable, or swearing, or verbal abuse, or sexist and racist comments. Do people really believe we should ignore clearly inappropriate behaviour because it might not be considered unacceptable in the child's family? I told a child off in school recently for calling someone a 'fucking black bastard'. Should I have ignored it because in the child's family it is considered ok to be racist?

The child did 2 things that any normal parent would consider unpleasant and unacceptable in a child of this age. She poked an adult in the stomach to interrupt and get attention and then she said something mean about the OPs daughter. She was not 'sharing something' - the fact she said 'ha ha' makes it very clear her intention was to mock the OPs daughter. The OP told her 2 things - it is rude to behave in that way and unpleasant to gloat. She did not have hours to reflect on how to express this and her words were not humiliating, demeaning or anything else. The response the OP made was not OTT. It did not publicly humilate the child, mock her or make her fearful. It was simply a clear, straightforward message not to speak and behave in what was clearly a rude and unpleasant manner.

Children are not permanently damaged by being told in a reasonable way they are wrong, rude, misbehaving or not the best. Children are emotionally pretty robust - much more so it seems than some parents who take offense at the slightest suggestion their child is not perfect!

I'm intrigued - and dismayed - that several posters think in no circumstances should the OP have spoken to the child in any way which would suggest that her behaviour was not nice.

That's absolutely not true. What people have said is that the OP could have chosen her words more carefully. She spoke in haste out of pure annoyance. Nobody has said the OP was wrong to discipline her.

I am the first person to say my children aren't perfect and certainly wouldn't take offence at someone pointing it out. People need to realise though that they aren't speaking to mini adults. Young children aren't emotionally mature at 5 and can find being spoken to in a blunt fashion very upsetting, especially when it's from a stranger.

Aeroflot - the few people who disagree with the OP do not condone the poke. They are simply questioning the manner in which the OP allowed herself to speak to the girl.

I think YWNBU to say what you said to this child. Unfortuantly she was rude and at nearly 6 should be aware of how you do and don't speak to adults especially less familiar ones. It's exactly the kind of behaviour that causes problems at school if not pulled up.

I had similar with a girl aged 5 who my DS was playing with at his cousins house. She kept going past me on her scooter and hitting me. Gentle 'please don't do that' had no effect and made her do it harder the next time. At that point I stopped her and said 'do not hit me, it is not kind'. Yes she went red and was embarrassed because she'd misjudged the situation but also because she clearly knew she shouldn't have been doing it. Should I have just carried on being hit while trying to supervise my younger child?

Brat I don't see an issue, she did not give tge girl a Sargent major dressing down, that could understand, but simply told her to "please don't talk to me like that, it is very rude" in a measured and controlled way. No problem IMO. Not every person will react in the same way, op did not know how the girl would respond. Some children would just shrug it it off. Hopefully the girl will not say something like that again.

Exactly hiccup, it takes a more serious tone or a different choice of words to take effect.

If someone had just said 'haha, your kid came in last!' then saying that it wasn't very kind to tease people wold suffice.

However, the OP wasn't just (reasonably) objecting to the words. She was also, quite rightly, objecting to being poked and having her conversation interrupted.

I think OP was very polite and dealt with it well.

imho, OP's words were a bit harsh but it was ridiculous of the other mum to ring OP up as a result, especially when child was provocative. "Never" inviting the child around is equally OTT, but I could understand a cooling off period.

OP has scarpered anyway.

I don't think the OP was unreasonable from what she said! If someone had poked me in the stomach they would have been told NOT to do that again! I can't bear to be touched because of my fibromyalgia as it often hurts me.

If the OP had balled the child out for it and everyone in the room fell silent then it would be completely unreasonable.

But as none of us witnessed it, we don't know what exactly happened and have to take the OP's word for it.

Unfortunately some parents seem to mix up reprimand with disciplined. I don't think a simple telling off is discipline, it's just giving a reminder of behaviour not being acceptable. Disciplining is a completely different thing.

I didn't think you were unreasonable until I remembered a colleague of mine.

She likes to go around 'disciplining' other children like you. I'm sure she thinks she's on a one woman crusade to teach children manners. I used to agree with her...

And then I saw how she lets her own children behave and speak to adults ! I then realised her smugness and superiority just made her feel better about her own badly behaved children. These are her precious children and she'd never allow any other adult to discipline them.

If my dcs are out of line I would not mind someone pulling them up on it

adoptmama

Exactly - well said.

Some of the posts on here make me laugh. I swear some of you were parents at my school.

Children do not melt when they are disciplined. It will not scar them for life. Hopefully it may make them think before they are so rude/nasty again. Although I suppose that's doubtful if their parents are going to soothe them after what the Nasty Lady said to them rather than reinforcing the message that you don't poke people and you don't poke fun at your 'friends'.

Reminds me of the parent who asked that her DC was 'cut some slack' re his behaviour - kicking, spitting and smacking adults when he didn't get his own way (aged 5).

TBH I think that often it is helpful for children to know that if they annoy someone they will get a harsh response.

When I tell kids off at school I am ever so reasonable explaining choices, consequences etc and give them a clean slate next time I see them. Sometimes I think some of them are going to get a nasty shock in the real world when they act like an arse to someone and get an arsey/violent/career ending response that they never would have expected based on how we treat them.

If the girls granny didn't notice, and if you were reasonably delicate in framing your speech to a 5 year old who may have then forgotten about it, have you considered that the mums you were sitting with may have said something behind your back?

Perhaps they didn't approve of your manner and informed the girls mother and that was why she got on the phone to you. It does seem excessive otherwise. If my dd said something to me about being told off then i would question my DD's behaviour. If another mother there had gone out of her way to tell me about the incident then I would be concerned and might pick up the phone to you.

It's easy to judge the other mother as being a bit precious about it all, but generally people aren't really like that are they? Perhaps there is more to this than meets the eye.

Tallest, saying "Please don't talk to me like that, it's very rude" really isn't "using language appropriate to an adult". Those are all words that 5 year olds can understand and need to understand.

Actually Tailtwister posters have suggested that the the OP was wrong to 'discipline' someone elses child. I wouldn't personally actually call what she did disciplining as there was no punishment given. I think she simply reacted - calmly and appropriately - a bit of rude behaviour (the poking and interrupting) and some meaness (ha ha your kid came last).

If you look at the thread there are posts which suggest that it is wrong to tell off other people's children for any reason e.g.

*“Being 'sassy' and 'having a joke' with an adult isn't something all parents discourage. Imagine if your dd had been eating messily (or something else only some parents get bothered about) and she had told her off.i think telling off another child should only be done for safety or if they are hurting or being mean to another child because you don't know what is naughty in every family.“ Lurking.

Nobody would doubt there are multiple ways of delivering the same message to a child who is being rude. Everyone will chose different ways in different circumstances and react differently to a child they know (as the OP knows this child) and a child who is a random stranger.

But just because there are different styles of delivering a message does not mean the OPs was wrong.

Her words were 'please don't talk to me like that, it's very rude'. This has been labelled 'unnecessarily harsh' and 'humiliating.' You also called it 'unkind and overly assertive'. What is 'unkind' about 'please don't'? What is 'overly assertive' about giving her the explanation that 'it is very rude'? I wouldn't say that by saying 'please don't', 'it's very rude' or 'it's not very kind to tease people for coming last' is using adult language or a 'sledgehammer to crack a nut'. It did not shame, humiliate or frighten the child. It would have been an approximately 5 second interraction by the OP. Hardly an OTT reaction.

I think the OPs words were entirely appropriate and understandable for a child of this age. I also happen to think that if a child is rude you tell them it is rude. That is how they learn what clear expectations and boundaries are.

You did that kid a favour.
What would happen do you think if the child had not been gently reprimanded and continued to think behaving like that was acceptable?
The next person poked may well have reacted far more angrily.
Good on you, if either of mine had behaved as badly as that I'd have made them apologise to you.
It's cruel to a child to let them believe they can behave like that towards people.

I agree adopt, a five year old should understand please don't do that, it's rude! Nothing complex and adult about that. I expect a lot of 5 year olds understand it.

Ok, I get the points about ideally choosing words carefully to get across the lesson without the child experiencing anything unduly negative in order to learn it..... But realistically, how often when you are with your DCs and fellow parents in the hiatus of a soft play rigid schedule birthday party surrounded by hyped up children, do you have the chance to 'choose words carefully' - esp when you have just been suddenly poked in the stomach and gloated to? The OP is only human, as is everyone the child will come up against in life, and as many people have pointed out, a lot of people would have been much harsher. Surely it is our role as parents to guide them about what is and isn't well-received in a quick and digestible way. OP didn't act cross, she even said 'please' and put in simple terms the fact it isn't 'kind' etc - 5YOs have neither capability nor will to comprehend some subtle explanation of the complexities of why it is not nice to poke people or goad. Hence 'that is not kind' gets it across. Whatever methods her own parents are employing are not working as this child thought it ok to 1) poke 2) interrupt 3) try to make a friend feel bad 4) try to make friend's mother feel bad 5) consider coming last something a person should feel bad about etc - so maybe a slightly stronger message is needed to counter the clear lack-of to date.

The notion about 'building bridges before the party ends' is a lovely one but again, seeking out any child who might not have liked what you said and making it up to them in a balanced and understandable way at every party, playgroup etc is just not something most parents are realistically going to do, esp when you probably have a bunch of your own kids breast-feeding, needing the loo, asking about planet rings, gloating to other mothers about winning etc

That said, out of protectiveness I would be inclined to speak to the mother if one of my DCs came home very upset that someone had told them off, in order to clarify the incident but I would approach it more casually and in a friendly way: 'look, you know what they're like and it's probably an over reaction - but can I just get to the bottom of what happened.. Oh dear, sorry I will have a word' then discuss it with DC, and why the OP said that etc

But I think it is good we are having this conversation and there are differing views, such a discussion means we all continue to consider and question our parenting rather than accept a default way to do everything, and that is a good thing.

I would probably have asked her not to use her hands in that way and explained that it wasn't kind to make a fuss about someone being last

But that really is saying exactly the same thing, isn't it, and the child would still feel embarrassed at being told publicly that she was using her hands wrongly and being unkind and making a fuss. If anything, it's making a much bigger deal of the incident because you're spinning out the discussion. If you then sought the child out afterwards as you suggest to let her know it was the actions you disliked, not her, you would be making even more of a mountain out of it. I'm sure you'd get exactly the same reaction from her mother.

I agree adoptmama

OP I think you did absolutely fine! If it had been one of mine that had done it, I would be perfectly at ease with what you said, and would have told my child to suck it up. I certainly would not be calling you up to bleat about it.

As for some of the terms being flung about on here...'using a ledgehammer to crack a nut' 'overly harsh' 'unkind'....what delicate oversensitive flowers you are, and I have no idea how you get through the day.

OP, YANBU and like pictish said, some people are sensitive little flowers.

"We use gentle hands" is appropriate for a 3 year old who snatches. It is not appropriate for a nearly 6 year old who poked an adult in the stomach. Sometimes children need to be reprimanded. How are children like the one described in the OP ever going to cope in the real world if they grow up never being told off?

Actually Tailtwister posters have suggested that the the OP was wrong to 'discipline' someone elses child.

Complete and utter rubbish adoptmama! Could you please quote where I said that. I did NOT suggest OP was wrong to discipline the child. I disagreed with the manner in which she did it, specifically the first sentence she used.

I have no idea how you get through the day.

Quite well actually pictish, thanks for asking! No, I'm not oversensitive, I just think before I open my mouth and unnecessarily upset a child when I could have tempered my response and got my message across adequately.