to think that women like this give the rest of us a bad name in the workplace

[HomeIsWhereTheGinIs]

I'm currently expecting my first child in the early summer. One of my team at work is expecting hers about a week before mine. And I'm really about to really lose my temper with her. She's resident in a different country where she gets two months of fully paid antenatal leave before starting her maternity leave so she's going off in about a month.

However, what's making me really cross is that she's obviously mentally checked out already. We work in a really high-pressure environment (city job) and she's one of the more senior members in my team of 17. She just sent me back her appraisal form (late) in preparation for her review later on this week, along with an email that says she doesn't see why she's been asked to do this review as she's leaving in a month. She's also started arriving late to meetings, delaying delivery of tasks, taking extra long lunch hours etc.

The review covers the whole of the previous year and although yes, she is starting her maternity leave soon, we're still paying her salary and will be obliged to do so for her antenatal lead and for a full year after her baby is born. So it really makes me cross that with all of this fully paid time off ahead of her, she's already trying to get out of doing her normal day-to-day job whilst she's still in the office. Why is it a one-way street with her doing all the taking?

This woman and her behaviour are why other women in our largely male industry office (myself included) are completely passed over for promotion once they're pregnant / have children because our male colleagues assume we'll all take this kind of approach. When I mentioned to our global head that this kind of attitude really makes me cross, he actually shrugged and said "That's just what happens. Women get pregnant and lose all interest in their job". She's ruining it for the rest of us. AIBU to want to mark her down in her review for this awful attitude? (Obviously I won't…but dear God I'm tempted!)

Tether Any chance you're hiring? Sounds like somewhere I would enjoy ;) We're down to the nitty gritty now - so I'll just say again that I'm not saying she represents all female employees. I'm saying, as a matter of fact, not opinion, that I know that the sexist people in my company look at her as an excuse for their misogyny. I disagree with this attitude and I'm vocal against it (and obviously I try to make myself a good example) but regardless of how much I'd like it not to be the case, I have heard people doing this. I argue back but the fact is they do it.

This is what frustrates me about armchair feminism. Yes, we would all love to live in a world where nobody judges anyone else but we just don't. So rather than just arguing back, I choose to hold myself and others to a standard that SHOWS them that they're wrong. Bigots will always be bigots and they just don't listen to spoken arguments, they choose to look at the individuals as an example of the whole. Again, not condoning this, it's just what happens.

Division, I have to disagree. I think it's unfair to say that I'm not showing solidarity for a pregnant woman who isn't doing well. I've explicitly explained that nobody at work minds anyone taking pregnancy-related sick leave. There's a world of difference between that and someone else who hasn't told me or HR that she's struggling but who is openly just being lazy.

As for going to my global head, in my company all reviews of people that work for me have to be discussed with my manager first to make sure they're aligned (although I appreciate this might not happen everywhere). And again, I have said before that I argued against his statement. But it was infuriating.

Sid I'm sorry for what happened to you but it is, I'm sure you'll agree, a completely different situation. You were bullied by an unreasonable manager who wouldn't help you when you were unwell. I'm working with a woman who has openly stopped working hard because she's going off relatively soon. If she came to me and said she was struggling then that would be a completely different matter. Again, the reason I'm irritated is her laziness, not because I'm mean and think everyone should push on through regardless!

Obviously we can't know exactly what's going on with her and if you reckon it's laziness then I can't argue. But my boss thought I was lazy and useless and I couldn't communicate how much pain I was in to her because she had become completely impossible to communicate with AND I had talked myself into thinking that if I didn't talk about it, I was actually having the carefree easy pregnancy I wanted. Part of it was my own fault! (Although anyone with eyes could and did spot I was in serious discomfort). But maybe she's scared to admit she's struggling and coming across as feckless instead?

I didn't mean to imply at all that you are being a bully, by the way. But the things you are saying are very likely things that my boss would have thought about me, and I tried so so hard not to be the disaster I was.

OP, you are not vocal against the misogynistic attitude that women slack off whilst pregnant - your thread title expresses the exact same view! At 31 weeks, armchair feminism is all I'm bloody capable of - I can't get out there and show through my actions that I'm not lazy because I'm ill and exhausted and whilst I've done my best at work, my performance has been nowhere near up to standard. Another pregnant woman who manages to continue as normal isn't doing anything more for the feminist cause than I am - you're just lucky not to having such a shitty time of it as a lot of us do.

Why is there a recurring theme in recent debate of women suggesting other women are to blame for sexism?

I find this fascinating.

And whilst I get that as far as you know, this woman isn't ill or struggling and is just being lazy, a lot of us who are in this kind of situation can imagine our colleagues talking about us this way through simply not understanding what we are experiencing. My workplace are aware of my health issues but I'm sure there are people who dismiss them as a flimsy excuse - after all, it's pregnancy not an illness and look at x who is managing just fine in her pregnancy... that's why I am sensitive to hearing a pregnant woman criticised for poor performance at work because I think it's difficult to explain a challenging pregnancy and be taken seriously.

There's a crucial distinction between 'women like this give the rest of us a bad name in the workplace', expressed in the thread title, and 'women get pregnant and lose all interest in their job' as expressed by the OP's sexist/misogynist boss.

And I don't know why people are continuing to go on about how the OP is probably being unsympathetic about her colleague's health/pregnancy issues. She has said clearly that she is not aware of any, and if there ARE any the onus is on the colleague to tell her employer about them. She has also clearly said that if there are health/pregnancy issues, she/the company will be nothing but supportive.

And on that note Fuckingwankwings, I think I will bow out :) You're quite right and I think the thread is getting a bit sidetracked on the whole "What if she's really ill despite no signs or indication of such" issue. I would, of course, be fine with anyone who was unwell and I agree with you that the crux of the issue is that as a professional adult the onus is on her to come to us. She's not a child and sadly I am not a mind reader (although how good would that be?).

Thank you all for your input, it's been genuinely interesting to see how divisive this was and I wanted to express appreciation for all of the contributions to the discussion rather than just wandering off. I've also found it very interesting that so many people seem so eager to excuse her behaviour on the grounds that she might be struggling but hiding it and I think that it would be a sad situation if that were so, not to mention unlikely given her recent communication with me. Her review is with HR so that they can approve everything in advance of our meeting and I'm sure it'll all go well.

I think it's been a really interesting discussion, actually. Thanks Here

Good luck with the rest of your pregnancy, by the way.

Thank you tether :) Am putting this thread down on my mental list of fun debates! Was enjoyable.

Yes, thanks OP and thanks to all! OP, I hope all goes well for your colleague and for you and the company in her absence.

I work in and have worked in various male dominated and sexist environments and yes the negative actions of one woman are assigned to How Women Behave In General.

of course it should not be like that but it is. and the result is a worse situation for other women.

of course it should be that people/men stop being sexist but if you accept that change will come at best slowly, the only thing you can do is redouble your efforts to meet the sexist standards.

which makes it very frustrating with others don't.

and that is why the conflict occurs between women. it is all down to sexism and lacking the power to change the bigger picture within your own working life.

*Why is there a recurring theme in recent debate of women suggesting other women are to blame for sexism?

I find this fascinating*

What would you call it when like the OP one woman blames an entire gender for the actions of another woman. I am pretty sure that is sexism. Maintaining the patriarchical culture in society is sexist whether it perputrated by women or men. The OP with the name of her thread was sexist.

its not sexist to observe that we live in a sexist society and women get judged more harshly than men.

so in many working environments, women have to be better than men to be judged less well and this effort is undermined by women who don't meet the same standards.

^ that is the reality of work for many women and they are not sexist for saying that is how their world of work operates.

to call it sexist is to try and shut them up when the problem is neither group of women but the environment that means they are judged as women not people.

I really seem to be struggling to articulate my point on this topic. I think it's that I feel that for many women pregnancy is a hugely disruptive life event which can cause an enormous upheaval physically and emotionally. I think that many women will be unable to work at their previous standard for the entire duration of their pregnancy. I think that equally, an employee of either gender who is going through a major life event could find their performance at work temporarily slips. I think it's unfair to expect everyone to be on top form for every moment of their working lives and that employers should be compassionate and understand that their workforce is human. Treating women well during pregnancy means you're more likely to get a loyal and committed worker back in the future. I feel that judging and criticising a woman for not being completely focused and competent in late pregnancy is not helpful to women in the workplace.

but in this case the employee is choosing to take long lunch breaks. which isnt trying and failing.

it just taking the piss.

jelly, I can't speak for the OP or anyone else but I do understand your point; you make it clearly. I agree with it, incidentally. But your post above misses the point.

The OP said REPEATEDLY that she/the company had not been made aware of any pregnancy-related health issues in this case and that, had they been made aware, she would not have the same view of the woman.

Not once did she say that she a) didn't believe pregnancy could be hugely disruptive life and cause an enormous upheaval physically and emotionally, b) expect her to be on top form for every moment of her working life, c) judge and criticise her for not being completely focused and competent in late pregnancy per se.

Succinctly put, WasteofTime

I think you need to have your baby OP, be on your knees with fatigue, experience joy, fear, concern and elation many times in a month with your new baby, then realise you work in an entirely made up unreal universe which does not put family anywhere near the needs of the business. The anti family culture of the City is something individuals can try to manage but frankly I doubt it will ever be overturned.

You just sound like you're comparing yourself to her and are a bit irritated she's 'getting away' with underperforming. Deal with your own issues, not hers.

I think it's utterly ludicrous to say that she's giving all pregnant women a bad name. By that token you're giving all senior City workers a bad name with your comments.

'a bit irritated she's 'getting away' with underperforming'. Yes. 'comparing yourself to her'. No.

its not sexist to observe that we live in a sexist society and women get judged more harshly than men

It is not but the OP perpetuates the myth by the title of her threads she asks the question is this woman giving me a bad name? I guess she believes she is which is being sexist herself along with her bosses.

Btw I have cone across many women being outrageously sexist, sexism is a culture we are all influenced by cultural norms. My mother is one of the most misogynistic people I know there are glass ceiling installers out their who are less sexist.