to think worship has no place in a school?

[HollyMiamiFLA]

By all means - talk about what people of faith believe in, use examples from their books as moral examples, use example of people with no faith etc. Lots of good opportunities for "doing the moral thing" and talking about right and wrong.

But keep "collective worship" out of it. If a child wants to pray, they can do it at their own time.

Yes - people can opt out. Children can sit there and contemplate. But it's difficult to opt out. Surely opting in rather than assuming that children want to pray to a God they really do not understand is better.

But it's compulsory - and in theory, OFSTED will look to see if your school is doing this:

" All maintained schools in England must provide a daily act of collective worship. This must reflect the traditions of this country which are, in the main, broadly Christian.

Parents have the right to withdraw their child from the daily act of collective worship and sixth-formers can decide for themselves whether or not to attend, without giving a reason for doing so. Schools must comply with this wish and must ensure a duty of care for pupils who are withdrawn from collective worship."

(I seem to be on a bit of a vent at the moment [grin[)

I say "talked about" - more worshipped. No problem talking about people's beliefs.

niminypiminy did you not read my post? The harm it can do is that my FOUR year old is scared of going to hell, as collective worship led to a discussion of the subject of hell. It is completely unacceptable that children are terrorized by intangible moral punishments in school, where they should only learn about facts.

See - an atheist would want someone to come in every week to assembly and discuss why they don't believe in God.

Or would expect to appear on Thought for the day and give their thoughts.

And they'd expect hymns praising Darwin and Dawkins as well as evolution and DNA.

I can just see the rewriting of All things Bright and Beautiful in an atheist style

And if the thought of hymns praising Dawkins scares you, that's how it feels for people who don't believe in God.

I went to a primary school and secondary school where we had worship including 2 hymns, a bible reading and prayers every single day without fail.

Had no impact on me spiritually at all.
I am an atheist ... but I know a shedload of great hymns.

I don't know why people get so bothered by this. It is as if some people don't trust the judgement of their own children.

I am also an atheist that thinks Dawkins is a divisive cunt.
I hate it when atheism is instantly aligned to that supercilious prick.

Thanks, harticus - I agree entirely. I learned all sorts of hymns at school, which improved my vocabulary no end, though failed to persuade me that Jesus was the son of God. I'm rather sorry that my DC's won't know these hymns, and will think me strange for humming them.....

As an atheist, I am horrified at the thought of hymns praising Dawkins - he's a nasty man if you ask me, far too convinced of his own superiority.

Sam

Would you want songs praising DNA and the wonders of evolution?

It is perfectly possible to accommodate all things.

There is so much stunning art, music and architecture that is non-secular.
Would you purge that from the world simply because of religious association or content?
Tear down the Sistene Chapel, destroy Michelangelo's Pieta, ban the choir of Kings Cambridge?

All very Taliban if you ask me.

I'm going to go against the grain here and say YABU. The praying part is neither here nor there IMO - bowing your head and keeping quiet is simple enough to do and no-one can tell if you're praying or not.

However, I think traditional assemblies - with hymns, the Lord's Prayer etc is a crucial part of British culture and history and plays a key role in understand the world around us (phraseology, the House of Lords, the role of the monarchy, Shakespeare etc). I think learning about the Bible, learning prayers, singing hymns provides children with an education about British culture.

I think it's important to know what someone means if they comment (for example, in this weather) that they'll have to start building an Ark, or, if you ask where someone is and receive the reply "am I my brother's keeper", you'll know it's a reference to Cain and Abel.

One could argue that you could be taught these things in the context of an RE lesson, but I don't think that's true. I think the ritual, the hymns and the prayers provide cultural references that a one-off class about Christianity couldn't cover.

Of course, children can learn this in church, but if the parents don't go to church then that child is losing out on learning about Britain's cultural heritage.

I think, personally, one is socially disadvantaged if, for example, you attend a funeral in a church or go to a religious wedding and don't know how to follow the order of service or don't know the words to the Lord's Prayer. I suppose it does depend on what circles you move in, but I'm grateful for the daily religious worship we had in my (independent) school and I'm making sure DD knows about Britain's cultural heritage too (by taking her to church etc).

I don't think the secularisation of Britain would be particularly beneficial - Christianity is still crucial to British culture, its laws and they way in which the country is governed. Further, the United States is ostensibly secular yet the role of right-wing Christians is terrifying.

I do concede, though, that I am quite establishment-oriented and traditional (in some ways - I'm also a single parent in a gay relationship so quite unconventional in others! )

I stand corrected on the founding fathers bit - though I still would rather be here than the US on this point.

However, it seems a very recent thing that so many people are so up in arms about this. So many people i know in their 30s and 40s went to CofE primaries, and even regular primaries, who had collective worship - most aren't practising Christians or of any religion at all, all perfectly intelligent, educated people who know that evolution is a fact etc etc - there's no doctrination going on, I think that is a myth.

There were plenty of non-CofE girls at my school - a large minority of Jewish girls, Hindus, Muslims. None were ever indoctrinated into becoming CofE. None.

How the is a child "disadvantaged by the religious affiliation of their parents?"
Seriously. I would love to know.

All this stuff about indoctrination makes me laugh. Most kids are bored shitless in assembly.
What very poor opinions people have of their children's ability to be discerning.

"Most kids are bored shitless in assembly. "

So why have prayers?

Oh so they aren't being indoctrinated then?

If we are going to remove all things that bore children from the school day we would be left with break times.

Sorry I am not following you - why is a child disadvantaged? Please explain.

It does not harm, encourages community and a sense of morality at the very least for those who are not religious.

Teaching children to pray to something there is no evidence for and that can turn them to stone, make them drop dead or remove their parents isn't harmful? The poster who's child was traumatised by talk of hell, yep no harm done there.

Praying for the souls of babies 'murdered' by evil women having abortions, that couldn't possibly be traumatic to anyone.

Morality and religion, yeah right, go read the full ten commandments, including the bit about not coveting your neighbour's slaves and then read the bits about letting your slaves have a day off. Slavery is a really moral way to treat other humans.

Kill people you suspect of witchcraft, be prepared to offer your child as a human sacrifice, let men rape your daughters to protect the angels. Yep all good moral stuff there.

How does it encourage community? All those schools in NI were children pray to the same god, they really help build a community don't they?

If all this religious worship in state education is so effective how come church going and religious affiliation is dying on its arse?

I genuinely don't understand your point about opting out of community events CorusKate.

And what is the great disadvantage that I have apparently suffered because my atheist parents sent me to schools where I bothered some god every day? I am not in the least disadvantaged.