to think worship has no place in a school?

[HollyMiamiFLA]

By all means - talk about what people of faith believe in, use examples from their books as moral examples, use example of people with no faith etc. Lots of good opportunities for "doing the moral thing" and talking about right and wrong.

But keep "collective worship" out of it. If a child wants to pray, they can do it at their own time.

Yes - people can opt out. Children can sit there and contemplate. But it's difficult to opt out. Surely opting in rather than assuming that children want to pray to a God they really do not understand is better.

But it's compulsory - and in theory, OFSTED will look to see if your school is doing this:

" All maintained schools in England must provide a daily act of collective worship. This must reflect the traditions of this country which are, in the main, broadly Christian.

Parents have the right to withdraw their child from the daily act of collective worship and sixth-formers can decide for themselves whether or not to attend, without giving a reason for doing so. Schools must comply with this wish and must ensure a duty of care for pupils who are withdrawn from collective worship."

(I seem to be on a bit of a vent at the moment [grin[)

Surely any "spiritual" or "religious" teachings that a parent wants their child to have should be taught at home anyway?
R.E should be monitored carefully because a few teachers will teach "God made ....." while others will teach "Some people believe that a god made....."

children should not be exposed to religious services, no-one under 18 should be in one. They should be taught what people believe, but seeing adults standing up making these declaration is not good.

unfortunately collective worship is required of schools. We need to change this.

they can all make up their mind as adults. Although if they have religious parents and don't toe their line, they will probably get a lot of hassle to put it mildly. Still, we could outgrow religion in a generation if we tried.

I'm actually really amazed that this is the case - I thought that by opting to send my child to a non-church school I was avoiding the whole enforced religion thing!

I would also clarify that I think knowing about different religions is really important but I think setting aside time for prayer is implying that there is definitely a God that listens to you

I think it is good that the DC's believe that there is some reward (however diffuse) for behaving well.

See this is exactly what I'm trying to avoid - the belief that if you behave well you get some intangible reward, and if you behave badly you'll be punished by sky fairies or some other stuff.

What is wrong with raising a child morally, to care for other people and to do the best for others because it's the best thing to do? Why must we hold the promise or threat of eternal salvation / damnation over them to get them to become good people? If my child helps another person, I want it to be because she knows it's the right thing to do, not because she's trying to accrue brownie points.

"I'm actually really amazed that this is the case - I thought that by opting to send my child to a non-church school I was avoiding the whole enforced religion thing!"

So many people say this - and TBF, prayers aren't a big thing in non church schools. But in theory, collective worship is statutory.

YANBU!! A secular state school should be just that. Secular.

The school DS goes to teaches Christianity, badly. We're atheists, he has no idea who jesus is or why he is so important. Just that little baby jesus = presents. He has no clue about other religions.

I don't see how such a lopsided approach can teach tolerance and understanding. As parents we will teach our children that different people have different beliefs and that that'sfine etc. But school exerts a massive influence too and there influence should not be bias.

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Callani I agree with your stance on morality. I want my DD to do whats right because it's right not because of some silly promise of reward/salvation etc. I read a quote that said "Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told regardless of what is right" - I think it holds a lot of truth.

YANBU. I also disagree with faith schools.

I'm always amazed at the bile this subject produces. It's as if there has been a switch in the magnetic poles of prejudice, and all the hatred that used to be directed at gay people is now directed at Christians.

Now, though it's not very comfortable to be associated with the target of so much anger, it's just one of those things. Sticks and stones and all that.

But I wonder what particular harm people feel is being done by collective worship in schools. Given the decline in church attendance and religious belief, it doesn't seem that attendance at sporadic, half-hearted collective worship (for that is the reality -- the requirement to have a daily act of worship is widely ignored, and the Christian content is often minimal where it does occur) is really brain-washing our children to become fundamentalist Christians (or even liberal Christians).

I think it's inevitable that sooner or later we will see a bill brought forward to end the requirement to collective worship in schools. It will be interesting to see how it fares. I'm not sure whether I think it's important or not -- given children's great capacity to ignore anything that doesn't interest them I am less convinced of either its dangers or blessings than either side.

I do, however, strongly dislike the suggestion that nobody under 18 should ever go to a church service. That is infringing on individual liberties in very authoritarian way -- and perhaps it is the underlying authoritarianism in this debate that worries me the most.

I've started a petition. It probably won't make a difference.

www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/michael-gove-remove-collective-worship-of-god-in-state-schools

" It's as if there has been a switch in the magnetic poles of prejudice, and all the hatred that used to be directed at gay people is now directed at Christians. "

Gay people don't expect a daily act of worship in all schools to their God.

YANBU - I'm personally of the opinion that church and state should be completely separate.

I agree with you Holly. I have never understood it. I really object to it in fact.

Expecting schools not to get pupils to pray to God is not hating Christians.

You would not expect your children to pray to Allah or Shiva or Odin?

'I'm always amazed at the bile this subject produces. It's as if there has been a switch in the magnetic poles of prejudice, and all the hatred that used to be directed at gay people is now directed at Christians.'

Yes, because in this country Christians have to hide their faith, are regularly turned away from pubs/restaurants/hotels and are abused, verbally and physically for their faith absolutely

I can see your view but I also know that the school with the best behaviour and relationships between year groups etc (and top results) is our local state church primary. Dd is there and I think there is something about coming together routinely in a positive way that works. I wonder if schools could take those elements without the worship part. I also think schools in the UK should celebrate traditional holidays like Christmas not sure how to balance that though.

Callani - my DC's are a bit too young to understand about act/cause utilitarianism - they do see, read and hear in the news about lots of people who behave pretty shoddily but seem to be widely applauded, which is why I would like them to think that there is some form of divine judgment.

Your point about morality is also a bit beyond my DC's, who have not read Kant. Eg, we make a big thing of supporting single parents in the community. Whether we do it because we feel it is the right thing to do, or because there is a specific biblical injunction to do so, is really neither here nor there. The point is that we do it. Ditto charitable giving, visiting the sick, comforting the bereaved, etc...

"Dd is there and I think there is something about coming together routinely in a positive way that works. I wonder if schools could take those elements without the worship part."

Exactly - you can come together. Be a community. Talk about things. That's fantastic. A nice calm community atmosphere.

But don't expect to pray to God. That's all.

No I don't think it should be compulsory. I made my own mind up about religion and I totally resented attending school services when I was a child. I thought a school had no business to be indoctrinating me into religion.

I'm not opposed to Christians, I think learning what Christians (and Muslims, and Hindus etc) believe is really important for children to appreciate other people's point of view.

What I object to is starting from the assumption that God does exist, and that people who believe in and pray to God are somehow better people than people who do not.

And thank you ToughSpuds I really like that quote, it sums up my beliefs well!

To be fair, most schools fail in their ability to provide this so-called collective worship. It was interpreted at my DD's school as a time of the day to reflect on some important stuff (modelled a bit on thought-for-the-day). THis idea of 'circle-time' works quite well I think. At no point was god ever brought into the discussions.

What you have is a campaign by adherents of one faith, atheism, to stop expressions of the state religion i.e. Christianity in schools.

Those daily acts of worship which are so objected to are mostly not happening and maybe a debate about removing a requirement to do something that is mostly ignored is worth having, but be honest about your motivation.

Why should we have a state religion?

There is a difference:

Atheists do not want schools to say there is no God. They just do not want God talked about.

Christians expect God to be talked about and worshipped.

A big difference.