to think worship has no place in a school?

[HollyMiamiFLA]

By all means - talk about what people of faith believe in, use examples from their books as moral examples, use example of people with no faith etc. Lots of good opportunities for "doing the moral thing" and talking about right and wrong.

But keep "collective worship" out of it. If a child wants to pray, they can do it at their own time.

Yes - people can opt out. Children can sit there and contemplate. But it's difficult to opt out. Surely opting in rather than assuming that children want to pray to a God they really do not understand is better.

But it's compulsory - and in theory, OFSTED will look to see if your school is doing this:

" All maintained schools in England must provide a daily act of collective worship. This must reflect the traditions of this country which are, in the main, broadly Christian.

Parents have the right to withdraw their child from the daily act of collective worship and sixth-formers can decide for themselves whether or not to attend, without giving a reason for doing so. Schools must comply with this wish and must ensure a duty of care for pupils who are withdrawn from collective worship."

(I seem to be on a bit of a vent at the moment [grin[)

Perhaps because schools are responsible for children's spiritual needs during the hours they spend in school?

Not at all U - I completely agree with you. Also agree that philosophy, ethics, and the theory of religion and spirituality should be taught in schools. But there should be no place for worship of any sort.

Children whose parents do not believe are not 'denied' the chance to decide anything at all - apart from perhaps the chance to be brainwashed.

If they were never made aware of the existence of God, then surely if God existed then he would make himself known to them?

And that means they should be forced to pray to your God?

I'd be happy with compulsory Hindu worship, as it happens,

Niminy I think I'll believe your first answer.

What does spiritual development mean anyway?

How would you assess a child's spiritual development?

schools are responsible for children's spiritual needs during the hours they spend in school?

They are? I thought they were there to educate.

Well in that case they certainly should train them to be Muslims then as that is the only true religion. Muslims know that Jesus wasn't really god so will train them correctly.

YANBU OP. Worship has no place in schools.

Niminy - if you just think children should be given the chance to 'experience worship', then why not, as part of a rounded programme of religious education, take them a few times a year to different places of worship (churches of different kinds, synagogue, mosque etc) to take part in services/ceremonies, at least to the extent that non-members of any religion are allowed to take part.

That way they can get a taste of what it is really like to be a member of that particular religion. As an atheist I would be perfectly happy with that. In fact my children have been on numerous school trips to churches, a Gurdwara etc and I think that is very positive.

Yes, I have every confidence in my atheist lack-of-belief, and I really don't mind my children being exposed to lots of different religious views. But I really don't see why schoolchildren should children have daily acts of worship in the tradition of only one religion imposed upon them in a place intended for education for all.

What exactly are 'spiritual needs'?

Whatever they are, exactly, I like to think that the imaginative and sensitive teaching of poetry or music should contribute, with empathy, grace and kindness introduced through drama, or history, or literature...what is a spiritual need if you don't actually believe in an actual spirit? Thought with feeling?

A visit to an art gallery? A walk through beautiful surroundings? Do these satisfy these undefined 'spiritual needs'?

Yanbu. I completely agree schools should be secular like they are in France.

I like to think that the imaginative and sensitive teaching of poetry or music should contribute, with empathy, grace and kindness introduced through drama, or history, or literature...

It would be fantastic if the arts and humanities were taught in all schools in such a way. Sadly they're often sidelined and under-resourced though, because they're not considered "useful" enough.

Making money or sellable products/services is what governments are interested in, and they push this onto education as its agenda instead of the all-round education which values the arts, humanities, literature, spirituality etc.

And think of how crap it feels as a child to be taken out of an assembly because their parent does not want their child to have to take part in an act of worship. Children hate being excluded and singled out in this way.

This. Which is why I didn't withdraw my children from worship at their C of E primary although I am an atheist and DH is a non churchgoing believer.
BTW I was completely and utterly open about my lack of belief on the application - I just chose the school with the warmest feel for my DDs and it had places.

And of course schools aren't responsible for spiritual wellbeing. That's a parent's job.

I should also add that even though we are an atheist/non churchgoing household we talk about God a lot. And not just in the 'he doesn't exist' vein either. You are making some very uncharitable assumptions about non-believers, niminy.

What on earth is a "spiritual need?"

I think that learning to pray is as important to children's wellbeing as learning to clean their teeth, dress themselves, read or add up!
And there is at least as much evidence that singing and worshipping together makes people happier as there is that chasing a ball around makes them healthier
While their spiritual journey is their own (and a lot of school religious assemblies are formulaic and half-hearted) faith is an important aspect of life for most people on this planet, and collective worship is a great basis for a school community. Lets have more of it and do it better!

So, you'd be happy with compulsory Hindu worship because you know that you're on hand to tell them what the "truth" about god actually is, eh?

And no, you can't get inside children's heads and force them to believe. But here's what you can do......tell them from the day they are born that they are Christians and are part of a Christian family.

it amounts to the same thing.

"learning to pray is as important to children's wellbeing as learning to clean their teeth, dress themselves, read or add up" - please tell me that was a joke, right?

I am a happy, healthy 46-year-old adult who has never felt the need to pray.

I think that learning to pray is as important to children's wellbeing as learning to clean their teeth, dress themselves, read or add up

All but the last two are the parents' sole responsibility, unless you are happy for schools to teach children to pray to a wide selection of deities including pagan ones.

I'd also like to see your evidence - scientific peer reviewed stuff, please.

I think if missy cares to elaborate it will turn out that she means "learning to pray to MY god"

Yadnbu op.

Dd can dress herself, read & add up. I still supervise teeth brushing (5). There are 101 other life skills that I would hope her school & parents can help her learn that are far more useful than to pray. Prayer does not even belong in the same category!

think of how crap it feels as a child to be taken out of an assembly because their parent does not want their child to have to take part in an act of worship.

If it's a majority view as it seems on this thread, then why aren't most people opting out?

And what if it was "opt in"? Religion is quite un-cool among many people so that would just change any teasing or feeling "singled out" to being in the opposite direction, towards anyone who was brave enough to want to go to assembly.

Yanbu Op. We have lbuildings called churches where people can worship. School is for facts. I feel the only reason its forced in school is they know that some parents won't force religion in children and tbh god is a hard sell if you wait till adulthood.

You can't get more atheist than me, and I never bothered opting my son out. Mainly because it was a hassle but also because the assemblies weren't ONLY about religion...that bit came at the end. I really wasn't willing to have him ostentatiously have to leave before they got to the praying bit. Instead I told him that if he wanted to join in with the prayers, that was fine....but if not he should stand quietly while other people did.

But really, why are we even having to discuss this? In a state education, precisely should there be any compulsory worship of anything or anyone?

Worship is a positive action, not a default one. Even twinning the words "compulsory" and "worship" together makes me furious - even more so when we're talking about children.

Learn about religion as part of the academic syllabus, yes. Forcing children to talk to a being that no one can even demonstrate exists in a educational setting is entirely without justification.

Ffs - trying to get used to posting from an iPad these days. Please excuse crap grammar & missing words.