to think worship has no place in a school?

[HollyMiamiFLA]

By all means - talk about what people of faith believe in, use examples from their books as moral examples, use example of people with no faith etc. Lots of good opportunities for "doing the moral thing" and talking about right and wrong.

But keep "collective worship" out of it. If a child wants to pray, they can do it at their own time.

Yes - people can opt out. Children can sit there and contemplate. But it's difficult to opt out. Surely opting in rather than assuming that children want to pray to a God they really do not understand is better.

But it's compulsory - and in theory, OFSTED will look to see if your school is doing this:

" All maintained schools in England must provide a daily act of collective worship. This must reflect the traditions of this country which are, in the main, broadly Christian.

Parents have the right to withdraw their child from the daily act of collective worship and sixth-formers can decide for themselves whether or not to attend, without giving a reason for doing so. Schools must comply with this wish and must ensure a duty of care for pupils who are withdrawn from collective worship."

(I seem to be on a bit of a vent at the moment [grin[)

I'm not sure how this impacts, but was a supply teacher to sixth formers. The course? Philosophy. Six units over two terms and NOT ONE was any element of Eastern Philosophy. Not even an option on the National Curriculum, IIRC. I am not saying we should force people to learn that, btw. What I am saying is: shouldn't the course have more accurately been named "Western Philosophy"?

I wish we were a secular society.

My children's educational choices have been severely limited because they were born into an atheist household, this should be totally unacceptable in this day and age.

I really do not see the need for a collective act of worship in school.

I don't see it as harmful and it hasn't converted my children, they have RC grandparents so very early on got used to the idea that adults can believe different things.

I don't think that 'worship' should be promoted in an educational setting.

YABU - at a Jewish school, kids learn Hebrew, because prayers are in Hebrew, and you need a decent knowledge of the language. It is important for the kids to understand the structure of the prayers. Obviously they can give it all up if they want to when they're older, but if they don't have the basics, they will be circumscribed in terms of future participation. Collective worship is important, particularly in today's individualistic society....

wordfactory - the US has no religious worship in state schools. Do you think they are less christian than us, do you think that Spain is losing its cultural heritage because they don't worship at school?

If you think christianity is important to you (or us as a country) then you teach that to your childen at home). I talk to DS about humanism at home because it what I believe. I take him to churches and teach him about the formation of church of England etc because I think its an important part of the history of our country.

I don;t particularly like him being told that Jesus died for us so we can go to heaven because I don't beleive it and I don't like him having to either keep quiet in class about it or disagree with the teacher.

I also think its odd in the extreme when you get an atheist head teacher having to lead collective worship - don;t christians find that a bit hypocritical and ridiculous.

well, the pilgrim fathers went to America precisely to escape religious persecution, and very deliberately stated that there was to be absolute separation of state and religion. But frankly, when it comes to religion and its influence on public life, I would far rather live here than there. Keeping religion out of schools doesn't stop the religious right in the States from having an obscene amount of clout.

I was a strong willed child. I was also called a "nasty little atheist" in primary school when I decided I wouldn't pray on demand.

Yeah yeah, the plural of anecdote isn't data.....

YANBU

There is no collective worship at dd's school.

She has religious ed for an hour a week. (today in fact) They are on Greek and Roman gods at the moment.

I live in Italy. Which, ironically, unlike the UK, I believe has no declared state religion. (not sure, and no time to google, but I think not).

"Collective worship is important, particularly in today's individualistic society...."

And who / what should children be forced to worship?

Sam if their paretns/community cannot manage to teach them Hebrew and how to be Jewish, why is that a state educations responsibility?

You can have collective assemblies without worship.

I am a humanist who is quite a pleasant moral person who believes in the power of people to do the right thing, to feel a moral responsibility to the people around us (near and far) and that if on balance people choose to do the right thing more often than they choose to do the wrong thing then the world will be a better place. Collective assembly can absolutely be a part of that.

I object to DS being taught that he must be good or god will punish him and that Jesus died so he (DS) could go to heaven as a fact.

as said before schools in scotland unless faith schools usually roman catholic we dont have collective worship maybe ENgland should get rid of their C O E schools and there will be no daily worship, I am aware that not all schools are C O E and now all do collective worship,

yanbu OP i agree with you children should not be forced to pray every day

@ JakeBullet, you perhaps inadvertently sum up my main problem with Christians: when they say something like "being kind and loving one another are Christian values it rather implies that other religions either don't do this or just not as well/prolifically as Christians.

Not to mention the fact that some of the nicest, kindest, most generous people I know don't believe there is a god who will spank them if they don't.

I am a kind moral person I am in no way religious why does christianity get the upper hand on good and kind,

This is the official policy:

Collective worship in schools should aim to provide the opportunity for
pupils to worship God, to consider spiritual and moral issues and to
explore their own beliefs; to encourage participation and response,
whether through active involvement in the presentation of worship or
through listening to and joining in the worship offered; and to develop
community spirit, promote a common ethos and shared values, and
reinforce positive attitudes.

I have no issue with most of that. Except the first bit.

Is it official education policy that God exists?

mrsjay and pendantMarina one of my biggest irritations are people who are often not practising chritians themselves saying that they want a CofE education for their children so they get a good moral framework...

Like all atheists are immoral and all people of faith are moral.

I'd like to think that DS is learning to do the right thing just because it's the right thing not because its what Jesus would do!

(To be fair I know plenty of sensible people with a faith who take the same approach)

'Worship' is not defined in the legislation and in the absence of any such
definition it should be taken to have its natural and ordinary meaning. That is, it must in some sense reflect something special or separate from
ordinary school activities and it should be concerned with reverence or
veneration paid to a divine being or power.

I viewed "broadly Christian worship" in schools as a waste of time when I was a Christian, and could see that forcing non-christians to attend and participate was wrong. I'm not one now, and my opinion on that hasn't changed.

So I'll be opting out for my child next year. Which makes his life harder because of class assemblies and school announcements, and by making him "different" to the children of all the other parents who just accept everything without question because "there have always been assemblies in school" and "singing hymns did me no harm"

Maybe if every child of parents who are not actively Christian withdrew rheir children from participation in worship a change might happen. It'll never occur because most people just accept the status quo.

MrsOakensheild that's a myth. America's founding fathers weren't trying to escape religious persecution, they were very clearly and documentably trying to escape pluralism. The UK (not that it was technically that at the time) was becoming too tolerent (even with simply different sects of Christianity - don't even get me started about the prospect of Jews or atheists), so they went to the Netherlands, which they found even worse. So they went to a brand new place which has only recently been purged of 96% of its native population in plagues.

I'd like to think that DS is learning to do the right thing just because it's the right thing not because its what Jesus would do!

(To be fair I know plenty of sensible people with a faith who take the same approach)

of course there is plenty of people who take the same approach just sometimes it is seen as being a Chrisitian is the only way to be good kind etc. if any of that makes sense, it should be you are a nice good kind person on your own merit not because some priest or minister has told you so,

I also agree. I don't take my children to church, I don't see why school (unless its a faith school), should have a default religion even if the default in this country is assumed to be Christian. I do think that a collective act of coming together and discussion of morality, togetherness and relevant issues is a good thing, I just don't see that any religion has a monopoly on morality.

fwiw my dds went to church at easter christmas end of summer term and I do believe a little bit of jesus does no harm but daily worship in a faith school is not really what a lot of parents and children want,

I agree with the OP. Maybe it's time for a big change in this country. We should be accepted for being secular. For all those who say Britain is a Christian country - what do you think it was before that? The UK changed with the times maybe it's time for a big change again (just without the bloodshed eh?)

YADNBU. For children of school age worship is indoctrination. How on earth is a four year old supposed to tell the difference between 'teacher says 1+1= 2' and 'teacher says let us pray'?

I think it's amusing that the DFE seems to admit that God exists.
Because it's in their official policy. So God must exist

What the kids learn at Jewish schools is Jewish practice. There isn't much theology of the "Jesus died for us" type, but I think it is good that the DC's believe that there is some reward (however diffuse) for behaving well.