to beg women with lazy sexist arsehole DHs not to have more DCs with them

[BeeInYourBonnet]

Apologies as I'm sure this must have been done before, but some of the threads recently have been SO depressing. I've been on MN 8 years, and it never ceases to amaze me what total fucking arseholes some women are married to. These manchilds are pathetic.

I want to cry when I read that some poor woman is pg with no 3, 4 or 5, and admits that her DH has never helped with a single night wake-up, has hardly changed a nappy, provides no support emotionally or practically, is financially abusive, the list goes on....

I know its more complicated than this, but I just want to scream 'stop having DCs with these complete bastards' 'stop showing them that's its OK to check out of family life'

& FWIW I think this has been a really good thread

Just catching up on thread. If I could rewrite my OP, I would echo exactly what Dahlen has been saying.

I just think that with every child, women in bad relationships cement themselves further into misery. I argue with my DH quite a bit, because he has lazy arsehole tendencies. Luckily, either my refusal to take shit, or his basic good character, means that for the most part we have a good relationship and he pulls his weight.

I have plenty of friends who have lost 'the fight' iyswim. They just take the shit. They are too knackered from sleepless nights, 100% of cooking, cleaning etc, that they are just resigned to it. And that's when women start looking at the very few positive attributes in their dp ( ooooh he can be very good with the dcs, oooooh he works vvvv hard, oooooh its his mothers fault she did everything for him) as reasons to stay.

It isn't always clear cut I don't think and I certainly didn't realise what some of DH's ridiculous views were and what stupid things I would be annoyed by that are a bigger picture. Staying enables me to make sure that I hear what is said and educate my children to see the bullshit.

He has been a prize arsehole at times throughout our marriage, but after being an amazingly confident, proactive person, I became very downtrodden after DS1. He said and did some things I will never ever forget (actually all small things that amounted to bigger) and if I had the strength I could have left him then, but was petrified that he would take our son. Fast forward 8 years and I am the stronger one in our household. I am the one who demonstrates attitudes and behaviours to our children not him. Of course he still says and does things that would be deemed unacceptable. I currently accept them because I rebuke them and make sure that my DC are aware of rights and wrongs and perhaps presetning their father as wrong sometimes is not the right thing either.

I am now in a position where I earn more than him, I am almost solely involved in their education (he picks up etc but does none of the engaging etc which to be honest is how I like it) and I have ambitions and dreams for myself and for my DC and they are happening regardless.

Sorry my last paragraph is supposed to convey that for me having the DCs and moving forward has made me stronger and more determined and in time he has also changed in the helping out sense. We have lost a lot but I am glad I had the DC and didnt leave although I do not rule out it happening in the future.

Lemongrab. Have you asked your sister why she had 2 more dcs?

I too think part of the answer to the op is because it is a matter of numbers.

Some people live in some areas where certain male behaviour is normal to them.
And in some cases they want the harder men. To "look after them". As the area they live in is indeed quite dangerous.

I think a lot of women put up with men like this and have more children with them because it genuinely never occurs to them that they could do better. I think we've all come across people like Lemongrab's sister, and yes they are frustrating to deal with, but why would anyone who values themself or who knows there are nice men out there, put up with it? I think the answer is in the question. They either don't think they can do better, or they think most men are ultimately the same. Or both.

Then again, I think there are women who simply feel so overwhelmed by the idea of getting rid of their P/H that they simply can't find the impetus to do so. It's not that they don't believe they can survive without him (they often have to do everything anyway, so know they can), it's more they know that the breakup will be characterised by the most awful level of fuckwittery on his part that they'd rather put up with the lesser fuckwittery inherent in staying.

I have plenty of friends who have lost 'the fight' iyswim. They just take the shit. They are too knackered from sleepless nights, 100% of cooking, cleaning etc, that they are just resigned to it. And that's when women start looking at the very few positive attributes in their dp ( ooooh he can be very good with the dcs, oooooh he works vvvv hard, oooooh its his mothers fault she did everything for him) as reasons to stay.

So is being lazy considered as being abusive? Genuine question. If you are with someone who refuses to cook or clean but doesn't expect you too either. Is that abuse?

I think that children are only small and need intensive care for a very short period. So even if the man does nothing to help. That period - altho hard - is finite. And at the end you still have your children. As AnneWentworth says you can carve out your own life, have your children filter out the partner then eventually leave when you are ready. I do think there is logic there, and when desperate for children and old, you don't have many options. I'd rather be with someone who is lazy and have my children. I don't think everyone goes into their situation blindly. I think the decision can be carefully made and this is genuinely the best answer for what some people want. (this based on the idea that it is just laziness, lack of 'help' rather than extra financial/physical/emotional abuse).

I know someone who has had 5 - yes 5 dc's, with a man who has had NO INVOLVEMENT in their care. Never lived with her, paid child support, had them overnight, had any involvement in their education.

Most of the children have problems (behavioural, emotional, developmental). She has depression (as I would in her situation).

If, after she had had her first at 16 someone had helped her access really proper counselling and proper family planning things could have turned out so different for her. But she's just let the pregnancies happen, in a really passive way, and then struggled mightily to care for her children. So, so sad.

It is threads like this that I so wish that men were on the site too.
Threads like this feel like we are partly talking to the converted.

sigh you're right OP, my NDN is pregnant again by her husband who regularly beats her senseless as well as all the other lazy arsehole-ish stuff he does.

Do the men persuade the women re having another baby? Or do they persuade them to be lax about birth control?
My guess is that it all is not as simple as that.

Some of these posts are simplistic and victim-blaming. Pictish and Minnie make good points. Can I make another one, based on my own experience, and born out by that of others. Quite often (or usually?) these men who turn out to be abusive misogynist arseholes do not advertise that for a long time. Yes, I ignored red flags (there is part 2 of a thread in Relationships somewhere I started about Red Flags I should have heeded, share yours for Womankind) but THESE WERE NOT THE THINGS THAT TURNED OUT TO BE THE DEAL-BREAKERS IN THE END . Often, abuse only starts during pregnancy or after a child is born. So, often, there were things we were dealing with, perhaps unwisely, but we were managing iuswim, and these men held their behaviours in check until it was much more difficult to get out.
There is another thread in Relationships, can't remember the title, but about what you should not put up with, and in many ways indicates what a good relationship should be like, someone with a better memory than me may remember and be able to link to it.

If you are with someone who refuses to cook or clean but doesn't expect you too either. Is that abuse?

I think it is actually. It's a bit of a red herring to say 'but doesn't expect you to either' -- somebody has to cook and clean when you have children, and 10-12 years of that is really not a short amount of time.

I'm not talking about men who are a bit lazy, but someone who genuinely refuses to do anything in the house at all and forces his partner to do it, when that's not what she wants -- yes, I would say it's emotional abuse. It's forcing someone else to be your skivvy.

At the very least, I would say that this attitude of refusal seems to go along with a lot of other abusive behaviour, emotional or otherwise.

Bohemian, my DH has never cooked a meal (couldn't if his life depended on it) or cleaned anything. My DH doesn't see why somebody has to cook and clean and is fine without it. I don't consider it abuse because he would never force his partner to do it he'd just get chippy or oven pizza every night. He's just not bothered at all. As i said he is on the spectrum, so finds these things confusing to say the least. However the effect is the same - little domestic help. I accepted this and had children knowing i would have to do anything i wanted it doing.

these men who turn out to be abusive misogynist arseholes do not advertise that for a long time

Parsley, I concur, I can think of a relationship where the man was just lovely until he had his feet under the table and then this other side emerged.

Did he made a conscious decision to play it that way or was it just 'instinct' on his part...I'm not entirely sure.

He wanted us to have a child and I refused, I already had two from a previous relationship.
I think I'd have been done for if I'd gone along with him, it would have put me under an enormous amount of pressure and he would have had much more control

Goodness mrskoala why did you accept that? Havent you ever been ill? What did he do to feed you all?

I hate cooking. Really hate it, food just doesnt interest me at all and would happily live on toast, but it would be unacceptable for me to get chippy for my dcs every night and never to clean up. I would never expect another adult (even exp when we were together) to provide every single meal for them. Ive started teaching my eldest some basic easy meals that eventuallu he will be able to do dinner fr us (and then his brother will to) as i think its important everyone in the family shares the load. I couldnt imagine trying to teach them this if their dad was sitting there waiting to be fed every night and never mucking in.

If you are happy with that choice, that's up to you.

But abuse is not just about forcing someone to do something. A lot of emotional abuse involves manipulation and coercion.

For example, a man who refuses to contribute to any childcare or watch the kids himself, and thus his wife can't work. He's not forcing her to stay home and watch the kids. But someone has to do it, so if he refuses to do it or help pay for it, then she has to stay home unwillingly.

Your DH is on the spectrum so I suppose it's different. But sorry, I think generally for a man to refuse to do anything in the house just because he doesn't want to is bullshit. To me it's the same as a man who just goes out all the time assuming his wife will stay home with the kids. It's disrespectful.

I have to take a break from reading the Relationships board at times as I find it distressing & depressing in equal measure. Some stories stick in my mind. 1 in particular quite a while ago, a woman whose DH was verbally & mentally abusive in a very calculated cruel and public way, also in full view of their DCs. Posters were very sympathetic & then she did what many do - start to say 'oh but he's brill in other ways' and then turn on posters who thought she should leave. Its just the thought of living within that situation day in day out, that got to me. & the poor DCs who are in that situation as mum wont leave. This woman said she was staying for the sake of the children! What life they'll have in this toxic situation I don't know.

Women can go through a terrible time with men, so far be it from me to judge, you never know what causes some women not to make a move..it can be a scary world out there. But to actually know you are in an abusive situation and resolve yourself to the 'I can never leave' aspect - I truly believe some women are living in the moment and don't realise theyll grow old and embittered, crying for the years wasted on a horrible man and situation.

I have a friend who's been in an abusive relationship for years, we've fallen out as she expects me to be her sounding board, including phoning me at all hours, listening to her vent about her man. She wont leave him. I am not available to be her salve/outlet in her relationship, ,its emotionally draining and frustrating for me. Got to the stage she doesn't even ask how I am. I miss her in some ways, but not the 'man' convo. Ive been in an abusive relationship myself. At some stage the survival instinct kicked in as I have myself & DDs to think of, and I don't love any man more than I love myself. Even when Ive been silly about it for a time, eventually I see sense. You cant throw your life away on someone who doesn't mean you well. It makes no sense to suffer just for the sake of a man.

I have been ill but there is always food for DS (toddler) in the freezer, or DH takes him to a cafe and they have scrambled egg on toast or something. He physically cannot follow instructions and cannot learn to cook. We spent months trying to get him to be able to make pasta. Everytime was a disaster/meltdown. He doesn't sit there waiting to be fed, he works most evenings.

I think you need to remember you are only ever getting one side of the story.

I have friends who always have arsehole boy friends, however much they have going for themselves.

The common pattern goes: they dont want to be single. They get together with a new man. Friends cannot say he is an arsehole as they are loved up and won't listen to anything negative about him. He treats them badly. Damages their esteem. They loose objectivity and what is normal and healthy. From what I have read, Stockholm syndrome plays a role.

imo the only part of the above process that can be changed is the early stages: (1) make it more acceptable for women to be single and/or have doner sperm (2) women being more choosy at the start

Women should not have to change but the arseholes won't.

What does he work at? Does he never have to follow instructions at work?

I would feel I failed as a parent if my daughter went out with half the excuses for relationships I have read about on here, much less procreated with one.

I'm ever astounded with the outright abuse people will put up with just have a relationship.

Also partly in line with what ParsleyTheLioness said - these abusive men are cunning. Theyre models of perfection when you meet them, you believe theyre your dream come true. & they can keep this up for a LONG time often you wont see the red flags waving until you've had a child. Their deceit and ability to hide who they really are is breathtaking. Part of an abuser's plan. & theyre very good at wearing women down systematically.

Having said that I don't think their's any merit to remaining a victim. Especially when you have children to think of. They suffer to, and in no way is that fair or justifiable. Some of the women must have daughters - & Im quite sure they wouldn't want their daughter to remain in an abusive situation. Its all so complicated..but in the end continuously saying 'poor you, I feel for you' doesn't really solve anything. I feel sorry for women who have no help at all. But part of me still says well, there is help out there. Particularly when you are in a western country.

YoureBeing - no never. He basically does something very complicated which is piss easy to his brain but unfathomable to others. But cannot work out very basic things like time or following instructions in order. He cannot see why simple things like having boiling water or cold water to cook pasta in makes any difference.

He has numerous masters and is working on a PHD but cannot remember what size his clothes are or when he may need to wear a coat. He cannot project what he may need in the future so cannot prepare at all. Every day he forgets what drawer his pants are kept in.