to beg women with lazy sexist arsehole DHs not to have more DCs with them

[BeeInYourBonnet]

Apologies as I'm sure this must have been done before, but some of the threads recently have been SO depressing. I've been on MN 8 years, and it never ceases to amaze me what total fucking arseholes some women are married to. These manchilds are pathetic.

I want to cry when I read that some poor woman is pg with no 3, 4 or 5, and admits that her DH has never helped with a single night wake-up, has hardly changed a nappy, provides no support emotionally or practically, is financially abusive, the list goes on....

I know its more complicated than this, but I just want to scream 'stop having DCs with these complete bastards' 'stop showing them that's its OK to check out of family life'

For some people it would be a choice of never having children or only having 1. If like me you left it very late to start a family, leaving childless at 35 or with one at 37, i think would make the likelihood of finding someone else who wanted children immediately slim. I'd rather have more dc and do all the work than not have them.

Not saying DH is like that tho - he's happy to do night wakes and nappy changes. But if he didn't it wouldn't stop me having more with him.

Some (ok...a lot) women seem to be attracted to cocky, self important, alpha male type jerkwads. These bad boys, who they regard as so exciting and sexy, are the same idiots that unsurprisingly end up treating them like shit and being useless husbands and fathers.

As they mature, the same women start to realise that what they really ought to hold out for is a good guy. A guy that is supportive, kind and decent, who respects her, and views her as an equal.
Unfortunately by the time they figure this one out, they already have a child or children to the asshole they thought was so exciting and wonderful in the naivity of their youth.

I often think that good guys get a bum deal. By the time the ladies realise their worth, they've already had kids with some asshole who doesn't deserve the steam off their shit.

Couldn't agree more pictish. You can add the 'mysterious Byronic hero' to your list of blokes that are crap in relationships. I was very attracted to my ex initially, because he was the closest thing to a melancholy, 'different' indie type as it was possible to get in my small village.

Didn't take long to work out that he was actually an arrogant, controlling bastard with few redeeming features, and his intensity/possessiveness really wasn't that sexy when he was phoning me 30 times in an hour and calling me a slut. Because I had the audacity to go for a few drinks with my girlfriends

It is frustrating, but then I can see how you might think - I've already had one child (so it's too late to get shot of the bastarding chap altogether), and I want 2/3/4 children so I'm getting what I want on that front. Why should my husband get to ruin my chances of having the children I want, as well as making my life a misery in daily life?

Obviously it's flawed, but I can imagine how that might feel.

Women who have children with nearly every partner on the other hand, I think that's probably just a matter of horrible self-esteem, in that they see their only worth as their vagina/uterus. :( :( :(

Having children as a consolation prize in an otherwise dismal or even abusive situation cannnot bode well for the children.

MN should run a campaign on what a normal relationship looks like. Fine, the balance of earning, housework and childcare may well vary but both people should contribute an equal share to the family. Women shouldn't excuse men from housework, nappy changes, night wakings etc on the grounds of their gender. Both partners should have compassion for the other and step in to help when they are struggling. Men won't actually die from not attending a stag do when it's unaffordable in terms of time and/or money.

And most of all, a fucking spa weekend is NOT adequate compensation for being married to a totally lazy , disengaged man who can't be bothered to take part in family life. On the same note, equal time for hobbies is not practical or desirable when it would mean that there is no leisure time left in which the family can actually spend time together - as a family. Those two pieces of advice pop up on every single thread about selfish, lazy partners and they are never helpful!

It's the surprise that I find odd.
People rarely change to any great extent, so if someone is self-centred and demanding, or unsupportive as a partner, they are unlikely to become a 100% hands-on equal partner in the parenting stakes. If they were a bit of an arse before hand, what on earth did you think was going to happen when they were no longer your prime concern?
So no, OP. It really doesn't make sense to me.

YANBU. I do wonder how many of these women have had bad relationships modelled for them, though, and it's only several years and children down the line that they start to realise that what their parents did, and what they're doing now, is not how it should be.

A cousin of mine was married to one of these. When they finally split her eldest DD asked why, if her marriage was so bad, she kept having children with him. I remember my Mum trying to explain it as "sometimes women feel so unloved in their relationship they keep having children because they get some love from them."

Oh blimey. I'm so glad somebody else said this, I've often wanted to say it but of course on individual threads it would be very unhelpful and look like putting the boot in.

I'd take it further though. I'd say to anybody who is really struggling with the realities of parenting (knackered, no sleep, skint, worn out, unable to enjoy life any more) why did you have more than one? I have one kid, was utterly aghast at how hard it is, and so won't be having another.

I have a great DH, great DS, nothing at all to complain about. But fuck me it is hard. Why would I make my life even harder? It's a mystery to me.

I think a MN campaign would be a fantastic idea. The older I get, the more I realise that so many people, of all ages, are hopelessly unprepared and misinformed about what constitutes the basics of a healthy relationship. I think it should be taught in the teenage years especially, because that's when it starts- girls thinking it is normal for boys to pressure them for sex, that sort of thing. Then the pattern continues, and often nobody actually tells them 'you do realise this is wrong?'.

I remember distinctly when the penny dropped for me. It was by coming across an article in a newspaper, on controlling teenage relationships (I was out of my teens by that point). There was a list of about half a dozen 'signs your teen is in this sort of relationship'. Every single one of them applied to my relationship with ex. It was as if a light had gone on.

Mothra, I agree. I have a friend with a lovely DH but my god he is lazy and the least proactive person on the planet. She is surprised by this every time he demonstrates it. Like, all the time.

I hate to admit its the old chestnut of women marrying men because they assume they will change. But people don't change, do they.

& also think having more children is because these women feel that they need to get their love from somewhere.

It's sad really. There is so much more to life- so much that is wonderful, and fulfilling, with or without a partner.

1. no one knows their dh/DP will be shit before baby arrives

2. many many many times the girls think the relationship is ok or normal or just a tiny bit off. They come here and I think are shocked that they are putting up with such stuff.

You think things are normal till you find out otherwise so I think you are BU.

I'd rather know why people on home improvement shows put up with fucking awful kitchens and bathrooms for 10 plus years before phoning tv show for help. THATs true madness.....

If a campaign I'd support one on financial abuse. That's a bigger crisis

Agree with Pictish - luckily for me I always seem to go for the slightly nerdy nice guy rather than macho good looker - it's served me well over the years from first and lovely boyfriend to DH (a lovely combination of nerdy looker nice guy!).

If your boy friend goes out with the lads every weekend, gets plastered, comes home looking for a drunken shag at the end of the night then is in no fit state to do anything except spend Sunday in front of the TV, he ain't going to change.

Having 3 or 4 children who will grow up thinking this behaviour is normal, this is what marriage is about is not doing the children any favours. Sons who will spend all weekend at the pub with the lads, and more tragically, daughters who think that's just the way it is.

Also there is no way i'd leave a lazy crap father when the babies are wee. If he then had shared custody or even weekend visits there is no way i would leave little obes at the mercy of someone who may forget to feed them or leave them cry in a soiled nappy. I think having 10 years of misery for the childrens sake is worth not risking their safety at a young age. However, that would only be if i could 'detach' from the situation and not show the H hostility - as yes that is also damaging. I would defo need to be there to ensure they are safe and well looked after tho.

Again NOT saying my DH is like this at all. But we have a slightly different situation in that DH is ASD and Dyslexia, he struggles to remember to put coats on, when meal times are and also could never mix up formula properly. He did try, but i could never trust him with a baby. Now DS is a toddler and his needs are more 'obvious' DH is great. But it was tough at the beginning.

YANBU - some of these threads make very depressing reading.

Karma, I totally agree. When I was teaching in secondary schools the sex education we provided did include issues about assertiveness, not being pressurised into sex, etc. - but it was still nowhere near broad enough, & certainly didn't get into the wider issues of what constitutes a healthy relationship.

So many women in awful relationships, think they are normal. Forums like mumsnet can be good for saying no that behaviour is not normal or aceptable. That is why so many women stay and have more kids.

And women are fed messages like they have to work at their relationship and everyone has their faults. Although there is some truth in both of these, I see it being used too many times to brainwash women into staying with men they should leave.

OP I see your frustration. It is depressing. And as you say, it is more complicated than this- who people choose depends on many factors, including how confident they are about themselves.

Some very simplistic thinkers in the replies, though.

Minnie you are so right about financial abuse. It's mind-boggling when you read about women with no idea what their husbands earn, have no access to any funds and who think it's normal for them to fund their maternity leave by themselves whilst their husbands spend freely. It's a very warped idea of female independence which is twisted to make them actually completely dependent and broke. I think financial education is incredibly important in general and certainly in the context of relationships.

It just seems that people's idea of normal is shaped by their own experiences so of course we can say it's not normal or healthy to have children in these kinds of relationships but some people don't know that other kinds of relationships exist or what they would look like. As a pp said, I seriously wonder at some of the small age gaps when babyhood has been so hard the first time round, but it's not always the case that people can make rational and objective choices when they are in such dysfunctional circumstances already with so little energy or belief to change things.

Oh I'm so glad you started this thread, because as pp said, it's hardly helpful to say it on individual threads, is it? But it needs to be said!

I think a lot of it is sexism. Women are conditioned to only value their worth through a relationship: even a shit relationship is better than no relationship at all. I think it's hard on some men too - the 'good guys' aren't held up as 'prizes' as much as the alpha men are. So if you a) are managing to hold down a relationship but b) that relationship is with an alpha male type, then it's a double thumbs up for you girlie. Even though the relationship is shit.

That said, I do understand why, if a woman wants to have more than one child, she'll stay in a bad relationship, unhealthy though that is. You've already had one DC, may as well have another...

i find this thread patronising and it is blaming women once again

who has not been in the honeymoon period where we overlook (men and women) faults in our partner

i would like to see more promotion of both men and women having a better relationship with themselves, this is the starting point rather than relationship with others managing your own expectations rather than what you expect from others

But it starts earlier than that, as some posters have noted. These women grow up with a terrible role model of relationships then accept terrible dhs as they don't know any better.

They watch TV where there is non stop drama in everyone's relationships and think it's all normal.

So many awful abusive dhs are described as 'lovely' when not being abusive. As tho as long as he is normal 80% of the time then it's a functional relationship.

No idea how this can be addressed.

Syllabubble - I have never been attracted to swaggering, alpha male type bad boy men. In fact, if anything, I find them a complete turn off and always have. I would go so far as to say that they probably even frighten me a little, with their lack of consideration and self aggrandisment.

It has never really been an option for me anyway, as I am blolshy, blunt, outspoken and opinionated, and in return, alpha males are simply not attracted to women like me. They like their women to be all impressed and deferential, which I most certainly am not.