to beg women with lazy sexist arsehole DHs not to have more DCs with them

[BeeInYourBonnet]

Apologies as I'm sure this must have been done before, but some of the threads recently have been SO depressing. I've been on MN 8 years, and it never ceases to amaze me what total fucking arseholes some women are married to. These manchilds are pathetic.

I want to cry when I read that some poor woman is pg with no 3, 4 or 5, and admits that her DH has never helped with a single night wake-up, has hardly changed a nappy, provides no support emotionally or practically, is financially abusive, the list goes on....

I know its more complicated than this, but I just want to scream 'stop having DCs with these complete bastards' 'stop showing them that's its OK to check out of family life'

Haven't read the whole thread, but a lot of it is the conflict between biology and socialisation, isn't it? Biology says we mate with the male who has the best characteristics and genes to create strong, healthy, successful off-spring. So that's the alpha male, the overconfident, good-looking, athletic, sexy, powerful guys. Whereas the partner to raise those children needs to be reliable, a good provider, etc. And those two males might not necessarily be the same person. Not that long ago, if you were careful you could make anyone believe he was the father of your child if he wanted to believe it.

Not so easy nowadays, and when you take women whose biological need to have children overrides their common sense all the more worse if they already have a fucked up sense of self-esteem you're going to get women having babies with exciting desirable men who aren't actually all that useful at being fathers.

Also, it was not as big a deal to choose a poor provider when you had your mother, aunts, sisters, extended family, and the entire village to help you raise your kids, but not many people live in that situation anymore.

Evolutionary anthropologists, would love to hear what you think.

I'd question that the desire to have children is driven by biology, I think it is culturally created.

Our ancestors didn't need to have a desire for children 'hardwired' into them, they just needed to follow the desire for sex.

That was really rude! MrsK was only answering the questions put to her.

I think the "movement" or campaign or whatever definitely needs to address both issues. Yes, men who are vile selfish twats need to stop being vile selfish twats. But as someone upthread said, that is "future generations" of men. There are women and girls now who need help.

I think a lot of it is how you're raised. As I said before, I had a strong, present, loving dad who told me, literally, to never take any shit from a man. And I never have. It's not being smug, it's just a fact. DH (who really is lovely) was once reluctant to tell me the passwords for the bank accounts. I told him immediately that that was financial abuse and I absolutely would not have it. I was in a brief abusive relationship in my late teens and got out right away...but I knew it wasn't okay, because I watched healthy relationships growing up.

I was raised to have confidence in myself and I never doubted for a minute that, if I chose, I would find a decent man to make a life with, because I was surrounded by decent men. But how many aren't?

Also (and I swear I'm not victim blaming) I know people say "people don't change" and for horrible abusive men I assume that's true. But...just your average lazy asshole...I wonder. If women, as a whole, believed in themselves enough to say "you know, I'm worth more than this and you can get with it or gtfo" and this was ALL women, I do think they'd straighten up and fly right.

Nomnom, I would rather go on and have more children with a nice man who respects me and will love his step children than carry on having kids with an arsehole. I know women who have had one child and then gone o. To meet their soulmates and had more children.

I think raising abortion I'm this context is pretty pointless. You are talking about it as a positive choice based on an objective appraisal of one's life and partner and the very first point I made in response to the OP was that women who are being daily worn down by selfish, lazy, entitled and abusive men are not in a position to make positive choices in order to make their lives better. We are discussing women who have been taught a different kind of 'normal' in relationships and their own personal autonomy. Abortion in this context would be an empowering choice and you are asking why women who have very little power are not making that choice. If they had the confidence to say 'I won't have a baby with this useless man' then maybe they would have the confidence to leave him anyway.

Good points, jellyandcake. Maybe it isn't a meaningful choice at times and for some people. I just thought it was odd no-one had mentioned it given the OP was specifically about having children.

too many women make excuses for men who pick and chose what they do. it is completely normalised in society.

it is not acceptable. its damaging to all people. it makes women who partner with men who act like adults, 'lucky' - not sensible or even better - normal. its makes boys think all the crap stuff is women's work so creating the next generation of child-men. it relates to us being second class citizens.

it is not acceptable.

i completely get that some women grow up in such bad circumstances they don't have any comprehension of normal relationships....

....but we are not talking about that: we have otherwise functional women making excuses for men acting like teenagers. there is no excuse: the men have looked after themselves when necessary - they just get women to do the shit stuff they don't want to.

while women continue to collude in this mother-child relationship with fucking grown up men, we will always be seen as the people who do/should do the non paid, non appreciated crappy tasks that other people in the household don't even notice.

another societal change is that child men need to be seen a totally unsexy and non fuckable losers and women to want to mother them as quite frankly lacking something. we (humans) create child men they don't arrive from another planet.

Also, in addition to my previous points....one of the reasons many women don't run for the hills when the red flags first appear is they had crap childhoods, their self-esteem is shot, they don't know what a loving relationship should like and in many cases the abusive relationship (mine too) has similarities with the primary childhood environment and feels 'secure' in a wierd dysfunctional way.

When I say 'mine too' I mean my ex 20 yr marriage.

I partly agree Suzanne - out ancestors only needed to have sex (whether they wanted it or not) - they didn't need to want babies. But the urge to take care of the baby once it's there is biologically driven - and if you take the view that alloparenting (group care) is normal practice in humans (e.g. Mothers and Others, Sarah Hrdy), then some liking for babies would be useful generally.

Notmyproblem there have been some big cross-cultural studies on the major factors in mate choice (Buss for example, in 38 societies). For men, it came down to youth and attractiveness - but for women it was resources and attractiveness - which of course do not necessarily go together. Other studies have shown that women favour attractiveness more when they are ovulating. Since human women (unusually) have concealed ovulation they have the option of switching mates wit out it being clear who has paternity (although paternity was probably not much of an issue as it wasn't understood - more about who was, or thought they were, pair-bonded to that woman and therefore providing resources).

I agree that abortion is not something that women in situations like this would necessarily feel they had the autonomy to choose for themselves. It might help if, before getting to the point of needing an abortion, it was generally more accepted that it is ok for a woman to take her own decision about contraception. But without it being seen as deceitful to use, for example, the pill, without having the approval of their partner.

why stop there? Why not instigate a "fit to breed" program. You know, where you need a government approved licence to breed? No doubt it's down to all men being shits rather than some women not having a backbone.

No one is talking about fitness to breed.

The question is why women choose to breed repeatedly with assholes.

I think we all agree it's the twats who are at fault. But so what do we as women do in response to such twats? Given they show no signs of disappearing from the planet.

Not all men are twats. Encouraging women to go for the non-twats, nothing wrong with that.

Do you do your share OldDaddy?

Youaremy, agree one hundred percent with your last post.

Action, yes very true I was over simplistic with my point about desired to have children being culturally created.

There has been shown to be an inverse correlation between level of education and the number of children a woman has, I think numbers of women who choose to remain childless is increasing?

I think women collude partly because in a patriarchal society going along with and pleasing the dominant group is often the most rational course of action.

Plus some 'Stockholm syndrome'

There is an ongoing demographic transition spreading predominantly through industialised societies (so also more educated, urban areas of developing countries) toward an aging population with low fertility. Interestingly, this started 200 years ago - well before modern contraception. Even relatively religious catholic communities are going through this transition. There's an ongoing debate over what is causing it exactly. Mother's education definitely correlates with fewer children (on average).

I had to look into demographics for europe in the 18th century and at that time around 20% of women remained childless - thought to be largely due to prescriptive marriage regulations, lack of funds to set up home, and looking after other family members (parents, for example). Very hard to say about earlier periods without records. I gather it's as much as 33% now.

People do become naturally submissive to a dominant group over time - this happened with slavery so that many slaves couldn't cope with freedom.

expatinscotland

And then the ones on their 5th date or 5 minutes into a relationship with someone who is absolute shit in bed, a skinflint, a complete loser, an addict and people suggesting how to 'give him another chance' or change him.

WTAF?! RUN! You owe this personnothing. If you have to start second-guessing and negotiating 5 minutes into a relationship, it is shit.

It does all boil to the fact that some people are conditioned to see being single as something bad and that women must nurture, rescue, be the one to give second chances or second guess themselves.

This. I have seen quite a few women who seem to think they are obliged to comply with equality legislation in their personal lives and give the very strange date another chance.

No. Other people, whether male or female, are not entitled to a sexual relationship with you. You don't have to demonstrate that you didn't discriminate against someone for their lack of social skills, prison convictions, rudeness, misogynistic baggage, or insolvency.

The fact you don't enjoy being with them is enough.

Yes people do being babies into dysfunctional relationships.many reasons
Fix themselves
Fix relationship
Elastoplast baby to patch over wound in relationship
Give self purpose/role
Numerous reasons

But as I read mn I also think there are female posters who like,and enact the woman does all mothering/childcare. Man work,doesn't do childcare. They seem to have v limited view of gender

I have been watching this thread ever since it started. I hate seeing a clear problem and then having no means to act to resolve it.

My mum would be horrified at the idea of my dad having to make himself a cup of tea. But yet I am her daughter; a badass who can get her own shit done, is a senior professional, isn't in a relationship because I was exhausted by the poor standard of candidates available, and is very different to her.

Not that I don't wobble and feel very down when yet another friend gets engaged, married, pregnant. I know that for that to happen for me I would need to work my life around a man, when so few of them I have met seem worth it or capable of taking fair ownership of the challenge.

We need a new definition of sexism. People think that feminism is done because we have the vote. Hardly anyone realises that equality means so much more.

I half think that we need some new suffragettes. I have a restless passion to fix this, and I wish I could use my life for something meaningful.

I'm glad to read a thread like this it confirms in my mind I'm doing the right thing be having a termination. Have accidentally got pregnant and wasn't planning any more with dp due to his treatment of me in my last pregnancy and after our ds was born. I just felt he did not support me or offer any help with our toddler Zen I was heavily pregnant and exhausted. In fact one time when I asked him to take her out somewhere he needed up causing a massive row went ballisti and smashed things up scaring her beyond belief. He also grabbed me and shook me on that occasion. After son was born he has physically gone for me again grabbing me by the throat. Now these are not in character attacks for him he likes to play the nice guy And I do at times wish I had left but with two small children it was hard. So anyway I had decided no more and ours are just starting to get to a more manageable age youngest now one so if chance arises I could leave! And lo and behold pregnant:-( Told him I'd definitely get rid if test was positive and so we are having a termination but I know he thought I would keep it if found myself pregnant and then I'd be vulnerable again and stuck for another couple of years but no way!! I really feel he showed his true colours last time

You are 100% making the right decision, piklepants, and likewise, as your children get a bit older, hopefully you are also making parallel plans to leave your partner.

I'm astounded you're able to have consensual sex with such a person. :(