For thinking my sister was too haste in cutting off family members after a racist remark?

[dolphinlover]

I'm an American who is married to an Englishman. We live in England. My sister back home is engaged to an African-American man. Several days before (back home) there was a family gathering (my sister and her fiance attended). A football game was on and after the game, during an interview a black player went on a rant against another player he had been in conflict with throughout the game. Our uncle then said, "typical n-words" in response to the interview. My sister's fiance was in the bathroom at the time and my uncle thought my sister was in the kitchen with the other girls but she was in the doorway and she heard loud and clear. Immediately after she heard that, she left with her fiance.

I know, the remark was very, very disgusting. My uncle comes from my father's side (brothers). My father's side are much more conservative than my mother's side. A few members from my dad's side were uncomfortable when she first started dating her fiance. But we sat down as a family and talked it out.

There's quite a bit of conflict in the family in the aftermath. My sister had a huge argument with our cousins (our uncle's children). They said he didn't mean it in the way he did. Which I don't really believe. How can you say that word and not mean what you intended? The intention was there.

But I think my sister has been too haste. She's basically cut that part of the family off and says she never wants anything to do with them. I come from a large family that is close for the most part. I just think it would be better for her to calm down (she's still furious - understandably so) and then make a definite conclusion.

'Conservative' and 'religious' have almost become by-words for 'hateful', 'hate-filled', 'ignorant' 'uneducated' and 'sub-intelligent'.

Such a shame.

If I were Jesus, or, for that matter, God, I'd be bitterly disappointed. As far as I can tell, Jesus wasn't all about hating groups of people because they have more melatonin in their skin than other groups. Of course, I'm not religious, so I'm happy to be corrected on this point.

The only way someone who's a bit simple, and doesn't quite grasp things, begins to understand is when people take a proper stand and not tolerate their stupidity. Brushing stupidity under the carpet doesn't get the message across at all.

I don't think it's hasty at all. It's not something that needs much thinking about.

yes it is a shame, i suppose you describe my dad with both of those words and yet he would never speak or think in such a way

Nails, yes, that's one of the things I was chatting about with DH. The point about the possibility of children. He said even if the likelihood of family members saying anything in front of them was low, would I still feel comfortable with knowing that there might be possibility something racist might be said. He said it's just not worth the risk. I do agree with him there.

Cailin, I would expect him to defend me.

I want to applaud your sister, your husband and your mum. I think you need to develop a backbone and see your uncle for the racist bigot he is.

Thing is though dolphin your poor sister has already had to defendvher fiance, when shevwas called upon to justifyvhis very presence. I can imagine how humiliating and sickening that must have been for her but she did it. Then after that to have them used that word while they were both in the house. She must have felt utterly disgusted and so annoyed at herself that she went through the farce of the "family discussion" only to have them spit on her like that. I bet to some extent she feels she pandered to and allowed their racism by submitting to that intrusive and insulting meeting.

I don't see how she could forgive it really. They have shown her such an incredible lack of respect.

You uncle isn't a 'conservative' he is an ignorant racist cumstain of a man.

I've known plenty of small c and large C conservatives who don't have a racist bone in their body.

Why aren't you supporting your sister and her fiancée? I think she was restrained in not knocking the nazi's teeth down his throat.

Do you sseriously expect her to pop round next week as if nothing had happened 'aw shucks you guys, now do you need any any more petrol for the cross burning'?

If you've anything about you, you'd bin the fucker too.

Stumbled on thread as is in 'actives', but couldn't read and run as have had a tiny deja vu experience like this previously. So, can I (and no flaming please, am simply looking at it from the perspective of IS there any chance of redemption here) offer a slightly different angle? AGAIN, albeit whilst WHOLLY in agreement that racism in all it's forms is beyond the pale.

For clear avoidance of doubt, I am not for one second suggesting what Dear Unc said was remotely acceptable. However... setting aside the bible/'conservative'/republican masks, there is possible (I'm guessing? Unless there is a vast age gap between OP's DF and his DB) also maybe a generational slant going on here? And again, will reiterate in no uncertain terms that I do NOT think any behaviour here was okay; am just trying to see OP and her DS's position in the round.

My BFF is a black man. He has experienced and observed racism for as long as he can remember (although funnily enough, it tailed off bigtime once he became pretty famous - he is an actor - and suddenly the bods with their pitbull dogs wanted their pic with him and the overt racism virtually disappeared overnight. I do though recall a convo with him when Ron Atkinson (Football pundit, previous Club Manager etc) was - rightly IMO - sacked for using the N word about a player in a match he was commentating on (he thought his mic was off; that the only people hearing him were those in the studio; and his comment was 'simply' in exasperation at the player's cock-up).

I thought it was f*cking outrageous; was glad he had been dismissed; likewise that the message of HOW unnacceptable that kind (or any kind TBH) of racism was was rammed home to all BY his sacking.

BFF though had a different view which initally I was mega at. He said that he didn't believe that Ron Atkinson had a racist bone in his body. That he had been one of the first football managers to bring black players into his teams way back; that he kicked the living shit out of any other players who dared to disrespect the black players with ANY form of racism; that he (a bit like Fergie at Man U) was a Father figure to many of his squad and that they in return loved him back an were deeply loyal to him.

That loyalty extended to the point that WHEN RA was sacked for using that - vile - word, some of the first people to stick their heads above the parapet and condemn his sacking were those same black players. BFF knew two of them, so as well as their comments to the press along same lines, he was really clear that their views were that RA was NOT a 'racist'. When I couldn't remotely square that with the comment, BFF's view (and the players in question views) was that he genuinely was NOT a racist but that he WAS from that much older generation where the N word was seen as just fine and dandy (IE same times as when the signs in the windows would read 'No Irish, No Blacks').

To summarise what I realise is now an absurdly long post - losing an enitre arm of your family is a very big deal, so if the OP thinks there is the REMOTEST chance that maybe Dear Unc fits the Ron Atkinson bill (although even as type, I'm thinking of the family pow-wow that suggests otherswise), then maybe she is just trying to see if with time as opposed to the 'haste' as she calls it that maybe there IS a chance to overtly pull Unc up; challenge him to SEE how fucking outrageous that was, and see if there is any chance of resolution but without her DS losing that chunk of family.

FWIW, I too would be maintaining precisely the position OP's DS is, but I can't help but think that someone should ask for him to express that 'apology' in writing along with a very clear chunk of detail (IE NOT just an "I'm sorry. didn't mean it 'like that' yada yada")

And in return (or even right now TBH), I'd directly ask him THIS question as it will hold him bang to rights vis challenging that (so frickin horribly) 'casual' comment:

"When [name of niece] and has children that are your felsh and blood even if they are a different 'shade' to you and they're visiting, if you're out with them with their DD/DS in their stroller and someone makes that comment to YOU about your family/that baby, what would you say to THEM?"^

Repeat, I am NOT even remotely suggesting his actions and words have been acceptable, but I DO think it's worth pulling him up on them - and OP's DS walking away from them (which I well understand) will mean he never has to ask HIMSELF that question; thus those views/comments will remain wholly unchallenged IYSWIM?

Apols for what is now epic length post but is a subject close to me and couldn't just read and run.

if my family talked about my intended thus: i would tell them to go fuck themselves

YABU, I don't blame your Sister, she did the right thing, her partner should not be insulted in any way. I am half Asian and despise when I hear racist comments about Asian people (or any race, including English people), we are all equal. Your Uncle should now apologise to them.

Am growing I disagree if people are racist, then they don't tend to change, I think that instead of being directly racist to your actor friend, it will now be done behind his back. Taking pictures probably so they can have a good laugh at his expense, whilst carrying on being racist to others.

My dp is white, I am black, we have two children. The area we live in still has alot of racist undertones, we live on the outskirts, so generally ok. My black friend and her boyfriend were chased down the street by a group of white boys shouting vile black this n* that words at them. A bus driver on an empty bus stopped and let them on. He saw them-good man. This was in London.
Even out and about in various places in London We have been in a pub say,, dp at the bar, I have lost count of the amount of times people will try to draw him into a racist conversation only to stumble over their words when I join him and they realise, and then go quiet.
We are sick and tired of having to defend ourselves, our relationship to strangers, but how can we not say anything, our innocent children have to grow up listening to this crap.
This is how racism is still allowed to fester, through casualness.
People find it hard to accept this so I get alot of are you sure-wtf?

Op your sister is doing what she believes is the right thing. You have no right to try and convince her to calm down or otherwise. In my mind to do so is excusing downright disgusting and abusive behaviour.

I'm actually in tears over this as sometimes it's hard to think that apart from the law, when it comes to some peoples attitudes not much has changed since people used to fear for their lives because of the colour of their skin.

Your uncle is entitled to his opinions and choices. Your sister is entitled to her opinions and choices.

It's basically 2 people who have vastly different views about a situation and what is right, two different opinions SO far opposed from each other.

For me personally, animal cruelty is a huge trigger. If someone casually made a comment about animal abuse in a manner that made me feel like they were okay with it, even worse if they said something that indicated they were guilty of it, I would NEVER talk to them again (and have gone NC with a family member of DH's because she kicked my sickly puppy)... that sort of feeling and opinion is ingrained.

You've got to find your "big" trigger to fully understand how she feels. This is a serious issue for her and her fiance. She has every right to disown this family member and while I think he could be the one to show her family that not all "black" people are how he (and the other family members) thinks they are, it's not right that he be subjected to abuse to "teach" people. It will take time and understanding and ACKNOWLEDGMENT that what he said, and what he thinks is very hurtful and it can't just be swept under the rug.

A few members from my dad's side were uncomfortable when she first started dating her fiance. But we sat down as a family and talked it out.

That sentence is very telling. If you need to 'sit down' and have a family meeting involving uncles over the fact that your sister is dating a black man then that side of the family is clearly not just 'conservative' but blatantly racist.

Your uncle knew exactly what he was doing. He was never going to he able to keep his trap shut, was he? He was taking the opportunity to have a sneaky passive aggressive little pop at your sister and her fiance, and then standing back all innocent like, and trying to say it was a misunderstanding.

If he can't keep his nasty thoughts to himself when they are in the same house, what does he say when they are not there?

Your sister is under no obligation to keep contact with people like that.

It's only a bunch of backward thinking cousins and uncles. She can manage perfectly well without ever needing to see them again. In fact it would probably be a relief.

Listen to yourself op. Literally. I suggest you read your post into a recorder and listen back to what you have said here .. all of it .. including the posts about your DH and you mothers reaction. Then ask yourself if you still think your sister is being too hasty?
It sounds as if she and her husband-to-be have given the racists enough chances. I bet they had better places to be than a 'family' gathering where they knew that rather than being lovingly welcomed, they would be scrutinised and verbally abused... but they gave you all a chance. And yes that includes you, they gave you a chance to show what 'family' really is about. And it's not being an apologist for racist abuse.
In a similar position I'd have packed up and left with them.
You legitimise these racists by sitting by nodding and saying 'I know you didn't mean it horribly' when they plead ignorance at the offence caused and offer their faux apologies.
You are at best naive and at worst ... well, I leave that to your conscience... but you really do need to reflect on the beliefs that feed the part of you that feels that your sister is or has been in any way unreasonable.
And look to your mother's example.
Get on the phone yourself and apologise to your sister for not backing her up immediately by cutting these people too.
Then get on the phone to the racist relatives and cut them yourself explaining why you wont be involved with people who racially abuse your 'family'. It's important you learn to call it like it is OP as, in this context, you know deep down don't you that the use of phrases like Conservative Christian Republicans is a denial of who and what they really are. As much for your sake as for your DS your benign enabling of these racists needs to stop .. or guess what? You might find yourself being cut too!

I can't believe you actually thought it was your business to attend that family meeting.

I don't see a great deal of difference between you and the uncle/cousins to be honest.

Oooh, I like the sister, the mother, and DH. The OP, the uncle, and to be honest, her father's side of the family, not too much. Listen to your DH. He talks sense.

You don't live near your sister. You have no idea what racist BS your sister had to deal with from that uncle and other family members. This incident might have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Also, if your uncle's apology might not be sincere, then your sister did the right thing. Stay out of it and just support her. Let her deal it with it in her own way. She might want contact with them in the future; she might not.

Its never ok to use the N-word by anybody. However, its a bit more acceptable for black people want to call themselves the N-word. Its just one of those rules that don't make sense but just stick to it and you will be fine.

The uncle needs to apologise even if he said it without thinking. The uncle needs to make things right. I'm not surprised your sis is cross.

You family is racist OP, and so are you. Not sure how you can minimise their attitude?

Your sister is right. She doesn't have to accommodate racists or shrug off their utterly vile and indefensible ways. Neither does her fiancé, who sounds like a far better human being - he didn't insist your sister cut this excuse out when that weird meeting was suggested so we know he must be a person with a tremendous amount of love and charity.

It is not your sister, her fiancé nor their future children's responsibility to make family life comfortable for racists. Imagine what this uncle feels free to say behind their backs if he'll say this while they're in the house and could potentially hear? Unforgivable.

Racism isn't just a matter of opinion either. It's not equivalent to the opinion that all people are equal. It's just wrong. Morally, ethically, practically, socially - wrong, wrong, wrong on every possible level.

Your husband is right and you need to get yourself straight and offer unconditional support to your sister. Not this qualified, mealy mouthed maybe-she-overreacted stuff.

I'm with your sister. Family meetings? Casual use of the 'n' word. Nah, life's too short, I'd be out of there.

Look op, your sister already gave your uncle a second chance when she sat down with him when he had an issue with her dating a black man, your uncle has now blown his second chance.

If she's planning on building her life with his man then when they have dcs old enough to understand that sort of language she won't be able to take the chance that uncle won't say something like that in front of them, which means she knows sooner or later she's going to have to cut him out of her life. All a reconciliation now would do is delay that.

I'm sure he has good points, but few people are all bad. This bad point means he can be part of her life if she's going to marry a man who's not white, that a choice your sister has to make and is hardly surprising which way she's chosen.

I can see it's hard for you, your previously close extended family won't be do anymore, I'm sure if your mum has to pick who she invites to family events, her daughter or her bil, your mum will pick your sister so you will also find you effectively end up cut off from him too, but families change and evolve.

Be supportive of your sister, but don't try to minimise this in order to make things easier for you, your sister is right to be upset and logically this man can't be part of her life long term if she's planning dcs. Remember your dcs will have black cousins and a black uncle, do you want them to hear that sort of language and learn from their great uncle that their uncle and cousins are inferior because of their race? If you have dcs you shouldn't be exposing your family to this man either.

Oh and Christian doesn't equal racist

Don't care about the ethnicity of the partner.If anyone used the ' N ' word in my house they would be shown the door no matter if they're family or not.Racist twat.

How can it be just a generational thing? It's not just the use of the n-word itself (which is unforgiveable in my view - regardless of age, everyone must know by now that it's deeply offensive), it's the whole thought process behind what he said. If he had said "typical black person", it would be every bit as racist in my view.

I don't think you can ever change people who have this sort of mindset. The OP's sister is wise to cut him out of her life.

amgrowing I take your point about generational issues and use of offensive language without any intended malice behind it. Such instances, whilst they should always be challenged and dealt with, can be understood to an extent, if the perpetrator is genuinely ignorant and not just plain nasty.

However in this case I think the more telling aspect is the family meeting that was needed, in order for OP's sister to be allowed to date her fiancé in the first place. That to me proves there are such deep-seated and firmly held racist beliefs in the family, that no offensive remarks can ever be attributed to a linguistic slip-up.