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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think a serving police officer should not have a conviction for D V

195 replies

glasgowsteven · 31/12/2013 10:13

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/cop-jailed-beating-wife-gets-2974444

Self explanatory really

100k in wages, still entitled to a pension, and in law, still a police officer

OP posts:
VivaLeBeaver · 01/01/2014 10:21

I probably wouldn't be allowed to be a midwife with a conviction for DV, or indeed numerous other offences. I'd be reported to the nmc who I imagine would strike me off. I'm staggered a police officer would be allowed to continue.

Nicknacky · 01/01/2014 10:47

I fail to see where I have been arrogant and dismissive? It is entirely correct that "bad apples" do more damage than any other profession. I think I and the other officers have tried to explain that these people are few and far between and generally speaking officer are good people.

But sometimes people only want to think of the police negatively and won't be persuaded otherwise. I've given evidence at a misconduct hearing after witnessing a officer assault a member of the public, it's no surprise he is out the police.

And regarding George park, no way will he be an operational police officer again. I have no idea why his position has been reinstated but he will no doubt be subject to disciplinary action again. Police Scotland operates zero tolerance on domestic violence.

caketinrosie · 01/01/2014 11:45

Nicetabard, I seem to have really offended you? My apologies. At no time have I said all the horrendous stories you mention did not happen. At no time have I tried to tell you you are wrong. I have acknowledged your words and given you the view that some serving officers are proud to serve and try to do the job to the best of their ability, despite constant criticism along the lines of they're all the same those useless bastards. I think you said 50% of us are bastards. Really? Thanks for that. Volunteering is just one way of changing things for the better. It isn't about working for the police as volunteers are independent. We have lay visitors who turn up at any time day or night to check the detainees welfare. We have volunteers who sit in on our training courses to ensure diversity messages are threaded through the training and the training is up to standards. We also have local people who are members of pact panels who meet once a month and tell us where we are going wrong. All of those people are vital in changing attitudes policies and procedures. If they don't like something they get off their backsides and do something about it. Feedback is vital to changing the future and avoiding future mistakes. And just for the record we have many disabled officers and disabled volunteers it is no barrier for us. But I feel you still will remain angry and unwilling to even consider that some of us are doing our best every single day. Angry

VerySmallSqueak · 01/01/2014 11:54

I have to say that I moved away from this thread last night when the site went off on one,but also because suddenly there was no place for a differing viewpoint to some police officers posting on here who were becoming very cross and upset.Which is what I observed the last time there was a police thread I contributed to.

I really wish that we could talk about it without such personal offence being felt.

But it's an effective way of closing discussion I suppose.Don't talk about the bad apples because it upsets the good 'uns.

I don't know the answer for those police officers trying to do a good job.
But the discontent I hear on here doesn't exactly make me want to join the police force.

TapirsCaperWithReindeers · 01/01/2014 14:30

Rosie

I've been on threads like this before, and it's always a lose/lose for police. It doesn't matter what you say, it will never be acceptable to some posters.

NiceTabard · 01/01/2014 17:29

I said that the interactions I have had with the police, 50% have been great adn 50% have been utter bastards. That is my personal experience . So it can't be "wrong", surely.

I also don't understand this "bad apple" idea. There have been problems at an institutional level (remember Steven Lawrence), there have been reports which talk about widespread failings, there have been reports that talk about cover-ups.

Anyone who prefers not to read these things on the news, that is of course up to them. But to pretend that they don't happen, that they aren't happening is ridiculous.

For example here is one.... ONE report about sapphire, which came top on google here. I find it shocking and it is not the only report of this nature into sapphire. Warboys was their most famous failing. There are loads, the article says that this one is the 9th investigation into failings by Sapphire.

These types of things are not due to one "bad apple" and to keep on insisting that is to deny that there is a problem at all. Get rid of the bad apple and it's all fine. Only it's not, is it, because it isn't just one bad apple that's the problem.

All the stuff out of Levenson, the deaths of Ian Tomlinson and Jean Charles Menezes, people like Sean Rigg. There have been outright lies from the forces and attempts to cover up.

The list just goes on and on and on. It's appalling and something needs to be done. It's clear that the police themselves see no problem with all this stuff though.

It will be interesting to see what the outcome of the inquest into Mark Duggan's death will be.

chibi · 01/01/2014 17:37

it is galling to be told in the face of what has comprehensively been demonstrated to be systemic, institutional failings on the part of the police that if anything wrong has happened, it is either due to the presence of a few bad apples or mistakes make by hard working people who can't always get it right

Plomino · 01/01/2014 17:42

So what do you actually suggest , nicetabard ? No sarcasm implied or intended , what do you actually want or think should happen ? Saying something needs to be done might well be true , starting with the senior officers would be a start , but I'm interested to know what your actual concrete suggestions would be .

I'm calmer today , not as tired as yesterday, when I really shouldn't have posted after a 14 hour shift on New Years Eve , where , by my personal experience , never goes well .

caketinrosie · 01/01/2014 18:11

Me too. What should happen? How does such a vast organisation get it right all the time? I too genuinely would like to know how we change public perception and stop any more tragedies. What needs doing?

Plomino · 01/01/2014 18:16

Evening all rosie ! I thought of you today , whilst standing on a scene this morning . I kept thinking of your 'what made you join ?' comment . Whiled away a good 4 hours that did , so thanks !

caketinrosie · 01/01/2014 18:33

Evening plomino! Happy to help Grin I'm off until Friday night when I will be spending ten hours attempting to cycle myself around my beat after spending probably a good half hour trying to fit my fat ass back into my uniform. So I feel your pain and may well end up wondering about the benefits of moving into retail, or nursing or maybe anything but policing. Grin

NiceTabard · 01/01/2014 18:53

It's not to do with changing the public perception it's to do with changing the forces so that public perception is no longer damaged by their actions!

It's a huge question and one that governments, the police, the IPCC, the public prosecutor, and many other organisations have looked at and studied and tried to action so I'm not sure why people expect me to have the definitive answer Confused

There certainly needs to be cultural change within the forces to remove the "looking after our own" attitude which leads to lies and cover ups. There needs to be more distance between the police and the IPCC which I think is being addressed at the moment. There could be an independent person / persons to look at the outcomes of reports and look at the recommendations and ensure that they are actually implemented. Officers who do wrong should be publically held to account so that the public have more confidence that when things go wrong the people who have done wrong are not still on the force.

There is a huge list IMO that could be done and ought to be done and I really hope that things are happening, although I have to say I have no confidence whatsoever that they are.

That is a start to the answer, off the top of my head.

What are your thoughts?

NiceTabard · 01/01/2014 18:57

Can I also say that I am surprised that people working within a sector / industry / role are unaware of massive news stories relating to that sector / industry / role? Are people just not interested? In my industry there is often bad press and the people within the industry are interested to read and hear about it, and wonder how things can be corrected. I find it strange that people who work within the police haven't heard of national scandals relating to the police. Any thoughts on why that is?

caketinrosie · 01/01/2014 19:23

I'm interested! I have and continue to read any police related scandal / current case. I have heard of the more high profile cases you mention such as mark Duggan, the hillsborough Enq menezes etc and just like you I have my opinions and thoughts on them. I too am horrified at some failings and bewildered a lot of the time as to how things have occurred and led to such disasters. But as I am not a daily mail reader, I prefer to not make snap judgements until I have read the facts. I prefer to spend time looking at as much evidence as I can as to what exactly happened, not what has been reported to have happened. But don't get me wrong at times the facts are horrific and there is only one conclusion to be reached. But as I work in the north west area I don't always know every mistake that other forces make. There is no standard police newspaper on house. So usually I rely on local media just like you. I can only talk about the people in my force. there are some i would trust with my life, others who make me laugh like a drain, others i respect and admire for their tenacity and integrity and others i think are arseholes. but i could give the same examples using my family members. I just feel strongly that the community must drive and influence the police service and those who sit back complaining should realise that nothing will change until the community stands up and says this is wrong, or do it this way, or tell me why this happened. I cannot change the past but i can influence the future, but everytime i set up any kind of public meeting I end up on my own talking to myself. I've even gone and sat on the local asda asking for people to talk to me! Still ended up Billy no mates. So as you hint you work in a similar field what is your profession?

Plomino · 01/01/2014 19:26

The 'looking after our own ' is actually nothing like as prevalent as you think . The vast majority of misconduct is actually reported to the directorate of professional standards by police officers themselves . I've done it , and I know plenty of others who have too . These days , even doing nothing to challenge misconduct type behaviour , can get officers sacked , even if they themselves have done nothing wrong . Two of my old team members got sacked this year for failing to challenge behaviour .

The McPherson report largely got implemented. So has Winsor part 1 and 2 . The IPCC is what it says , independent .

Out of interest , do you think that other critical professions should be publicly held to account , or is it only the police ? Why do you not have confidence that things may not change ? Why do you think that you have no power to change things ? Obviously not only you , but do you not think you could have a part to play , no matter how small ? If you want things to change, then surely we all have a part to play ?

When I joined in 1994 , the police service was a very very different animal then , to what it is now . Domestic violence wasn't treated with half the attention it is now . Safeguarding measures were virtually unheard of . Multi agency risk assessment partnerships ? Forget it . Female police officers were described as 'plonks ' . (Person of little or no knowledge ) A lot of things simply didn't get recorded . These days , everything but everything is audited . We're governed by the national crime recording standards , national incident classifications , home office counting rules , standard operating procedures for every single call from missing persons , to murders. All phone calls are recorded , all radio transmissions likewise . Our police cars carry black boxes with over 200 sensors to audit every driver's manner of driving should it be so required . Our personal driving licences get endorsed if we commit road traffic offences in a job car. We invite Amnesty International into our public order operations room to view our actions in recent public order events .We are getting there . But none of that makes news , as good news never does . Bad news is so much more headline grabbing .

Do you not see that possibly neither your view point , nor mine is completely true ? We are both governed , as you say , by what you experience . I experience people who on a daily basis scream at me , threaten me , follow me home from work , and wish death on my children . That's when they're not actively trying to assault me , and inflict further injuries than the ones I've already had . I've had the contents of people's colostomy bags thrown at me . All of the above has also happened to my colleagues, and yes , when the shit hits the fan and we have to fight , then yes , of course we look after each other . But active wrongdoing should never be condoned , and these days , it largely isn't .

MoreThanChristmasCrackers · 01/01/2014 19:32

My best friend at school became a PO, he was a lovely person until then.
He met a lovely girl, settled down, had a couple of dc.
He beat her black and blue, not all but for quite a few it goes with the job. I have known/heard of others too and my ds1 has a friend whose also doing this to gf now. Sad

Plomino · 01/01/2014 19:32

And rosie is right . It's not that we're not interested , it's just that we dont always know . There are 46 forces after all . That and we also know that the news report isn't always accurate .

chibi · 01/01/2014 19:36

really? even when they quote directly from ipcc findings? gosh.

Plomino · 01/01/2014 19:41

I've just looked up how many officers in the Met were arrested for domestic violence . Between 01/01/2008 and 30/04/2011 , 160 were arrested for domestic violence related matters . Of which 14 were special constables , presumably with another means of employment . 160 , out of 31000 , in 3 and a half years . It's freely available info should you wish to find it . I'd be interested to know if that's any more or less than any other profession . Of course , that's 160 too many .

As to what happened to them , 5 were discontinued , 126 were unsubstantiated , and 7 were found guilty at a public court .

chibi · 01/01/2014 19:47

i really do think that if you want to work in law enforcement you need to personally uphold the law

it is immaterial whether the number of arrests for dv is comparable in other professions

just as it might be mildly interesting to know how many accountants don't wash their hands after using a toilet, but extremely pertinent to know the samr about chefs, or surgeons

NiceTabard · 01/01/2014 19:50

Why on earth am I being accused of being a Daily Mail reader?

I get my info from the BBC news website, and watch Newsnight and Question time and the Channel 4 news. All of those are pretty credible and reliable as far as I know. They are also generally National, and reporting on the Met's failings usually make the National press even though obviously they are the force for London only.

Plomino · 01/01/2014 19:52

I agree . Which is why I do .

As to the IPCC findings , please specify which report I am not interested in which has quoted them , as I haven't actually referred to one yet ?

NiceTabard · 01/01/2014 19:52

I am really surprised that the failings of the Sapphire unit and the Reid and Warboys cases are not generally known amongst UK police.

When there is an investigation with recommendations, or an inquiry, are they circulated throughout the forces as a whole so that everyone is up to date with what is going on etc?

caketinrosie · 01/01/2014 19:53

Chibi, I'm confused. What are you talking about? I don't read the ipcc website daily, but I do read all the regular bulletins that I am sent. But as I have twenty years worth of emails and a post pregnancy now peri menopausal brain some of the info dies not stick.
Plomino I second everything you say, same goes on in our place too. Bloody well said.
Morethan, no. It does not go with the job. Pick up the phone and report it. Tell your friend to report it. Tell a bobby on the street and they will report it for you. If the cps won't run it because your friend won't cooperate stand up and be her witness because then it will be reported a prosecution will stand a chance of success and he or she will be fired. But knowing and saying nothing? Well I know what I would do. A case can only go ahead with evidence, did you know the majority of witnesses in dv cases are police officers because some victims both men and women are too afraid. Well we are not, but to have an independent witnesses means almost certain success.

NiceTabard · 01/01/2014 19:55

Plomino you have said that you and your collegaues don't really listen to news stories about the police as they are often inaccurate. So eg I linked a story upthread and the response was you can't believe everything you read. The story quoted the IPCC though so does that not give it credibility is what Chibi is asking.