AIBU to think Scotland are gonna have moring after regret

[Sadoldbag]

Just heard today that Asda and morrisons will hike there prices up as the store in the uk subsidise the ones in Scotland.

Also the persident of the European union has said last week on hard talk Scotland will not be able to jump the que on the back of the uk coat tails and will have to join and fresh and wait in the back of the que

And royal mail have also said they may stop mail to the far flung parts of Scotland if they go ita lone as they loose money in the shetlands ect and they would only be required to provide mail in the uk.

And it seems to me all the bits in the white paper are all assertions and weather they keep the pound ect is not actually up to them.

I think this is gonna be like ringing your boss when drunk it sounds like a good idea at the time

But They will regert it in the morining

I know a lot of Scandis who came to Scotland as they liked the spirit of the people and believed Scotland/the UK was a country where they could flourish as entrepreneurs. They believe their countries are over-regulated, over-dependent on civil service, with huge tax bills and high prices.

Im exhausted from the last thread on this so I will simply say...

Dont believe what you read on here
Dont believe what you see in the media
Dont believe your best friend

This is too important for you to not know your own mind.

Read, read, and read some more. It doesn't matter if you read the Sun or a Better Together blog or obscure legal documents. Read them all. Read widely. And most of all, read critically.

Of course there are no certainties with a yes vote, just as there are no certainties with a no vote.

All you can do is educate yourself so you can see the likely outcomes with either vote and decide which likely outcome is most positive for you and your children.

I would be really sad if Scotland left the union I find it really weird that in a few years I could go from being the same nationality as the most of my family to a different nationality.

I know these are really ignorant questions but would I need a passport to visit my nan? As my dm and her family Scottish if I wanted to move there after independence would it be easy for me?

I am really struggling with how I'm going to vote. And I've got a degree in Politics, I'm not daft.

I don't believe the wish list in the white paper is affordable. Far from it. And I wouldn't vote for the SNP in an independent Scotland.

But I want to live in a country that doesn't endorse bedroom tax. Or capping benefits for poor families whilst MPs get an 11% pay rise. Or a country where almost all of the Cabinet are upper-class privately educated networkers who don't have an understanding of what real life is like for most people.

Ideologically I want to say yes. But the financial implications are really very scary.

I had this conversatiin with my english in laws the otherday. Why on earth do so many in england think scotland allwant to be independant? Is that the impression the media are giving you all?

Never get all the scandi worshipping. I'd much rather live in a celtic country.

Never get all the scandi worshipping. I'd much rather live in a celtic country

It's not "Scandi worshipping", its more of an example of how a country can work perfectly well with a solid welfare state. I'm not quite sure what you mean by a "Celtic country" - what do you see as the main principles of a Celtic government?

Ideologically I want to say yes. But the financial implications are really very scary

They really aren't :) Even Westminster has said that Scotland is perfectly capable of going it alone...

I meant culturally.

But culture to some extent is not determined by the government? I'm not sure I understand the relevance - and I'm not sure what Celtic is culturally either? OR are you equating Celtic culture with Scots culture?

Not trying to be snippy - genuinely want to understand...

Yes, I know that. What I'm referring to is more...how are we going to fund this left-leaning Socialist country we want to build as our population ages and we have a large percentage of our people working in our massively bloated public sector?

how are we going to fund this left-leaning Socialist country we want to build as our population ages and we have a large percentage of our people working in our massively bloated public sector?

In the long run, social investment will reap its own rewards. In the short term we are actually a pretty wealthy wee country, and we can save loads on things like simplified taxes, and just different spending priorities (e.g. not contributing towards trident).

The capitalist model much loved by the Tories, is not the only way to create a successful country (and success is about happiness, and equality, not just wealth)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

In the long run, social investment will reap its own rewards. In the short term we are actually a pretty wealthy wee country, and we can save loads on things like simplified taxes, and just different spending priorities (e.g. not contributing towards trident).

I note a distinct hint of hand-waving vaguery and a distinct lack of actual numbers. Ironic how apt your moniker seems to be.

The capitalist model much loved by the Tories, is not the only way to create a successful country (and success is about happiness, and equality, not just wealth)

Could you show me some examples of countries which have 'discarded capitalism' and are successful? By any metric?

(I'm not talking about Scandinavia. They have not 'discarded capitalism'.)

Also, WTAF is 'social investment'? Is that leftist flannel for 'welfare spending'?

But Scotland is a capitalist country. Now of course there are degrees of capitalism, but transforming from capitalism into a completely different model hasn't been mentioned by any party. because it's not gonna happen

Because once you take away the nasty capitalists, who is actually going to fund all this social investment?

As someone recently pointed out in a newspaper article, the reason the referendum has come to the fore (again) is that most Scots - of varying political persuasions - are horrified by the direction taken by the Westminster government over the past couple of decades. They want a less hierarchical, fairer, more collectively caring, social-democratic state, and any chance of that for the UK is swiftly disappearing. So in some sense there is little choice but to vote yes, if that's what you want. But there's no doubt that there's any number of other concerns that might strongly influence a vote against independence. I'm Scottish by birth but live in England, so no vote for me. But if they do vote yes, I'd be sorely tempted to move back. To a country that values state education and public services, has a rational policy on immigration, positively wants to contribute to the European Union, and cares properly for the elderly and the vulnerable. If it's 'yes', maybe we can invite the north of England along for the ride...

JE001 I really hate people speaking for me. How arrogant are you? 'Most Scots think this', Most Scots want that'. All the opinion polls suggest most bloody Scots want to remain part of the UK, and your intolerance of alternative but perfectly mainstream political choices doesn't come across very well.

Also, WTAF is 'social investment'? Is that leftist flannel for 'welfare spending'?

At a very basic level sort of. Social investment is when the government spends money on things like schooling, health, housing, benefits etc. This encourages citizens to be more productive and pay more taxes.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

At a very basic level sort of. Social investment is when the government spends money on things like schooling, health, housing, benefits etc. This encourages citizens to be more productive and pay more taxes.

So not investment at all then, but spending, it's just you've started calling it investment to imply that there's a financial return when you've no way of knowing that there is.

Does it create enough money to pay for the handouts?

And sorry but you might've missed my previous post where I asked for a real-world example of a country which has 'discarded capitalism' and is more successful.

Sashh: there are two unions, one of the crowns, which took place in 1603 when Elizabeth I died with no children and James VI of Scotland became James I of England. In 1707 the Acts of Union created a new United Kingdom. The political background was complicated - and remains contested, to some extent - but England wanted to ensure Scotland wouldn't choose a different monarch after Anne died, and Scotland had lost an enormous amount of money in attempting to found its own colony.
Wrt the pound question, I've no idea - I imagine it's not so much which cowrie shells we choose to use as how others value then outside Scotland. I do struggle to see how independent we could really be without our own currency and monetary policy.
And many, many people voted SNP without either supporting independence or being numpties. The voting system for the Scottish Parliament wasn't really meant to deliver a majority Goverment, it was envisaged that coalition would be the norm.

LessMissAbs - I'm not speaking for anyone; I'm (a) reporting an interesting and I thought well argued opinion piece in a newspaper, and (b) noting that politics in Scotland is very different from that which obtains in the rest of the UK - as evidenced by no Scottish Tory MPs, a rather different kind of Labour politician, and not much in the way of LibDem activity. Sorry if it didn't come across well, but I still think there's plenty to indicate that Scotland is taking a different path, and that independence may be the logical outcome of that - or may not, depending on how people in Scotland decide. The health, education and legal systems in Scotland are very different from those in England, and becoming more so, not less. Scots have voted for governments that have pursued those policies, and that makes me think that - in various ways and at various times - 'most' Scots have approved of those policies.

Well basically, FlatPack, it means Scotland would become an even more highly taxed 'progressively socialist' country than the already highly taxed socialist country the UK is.

I dont know if a lot of people on here are non taxpayers, but I certainly notice a lot of money coming out of my salary, to redistribute part of my earnings. That is socialist. What you are talking about is being more socialist.

Well basically, FlatPack, it means Scotland would become an even more highly taxed 'progressively socialist' country than the already highly taxed socialist country the UK is.

I dont know if a lot of people on here are non taxpayers, but I certainly notice a lot of money coming out of my salary, to redistribute part of my earnings. That is socialist. What you are talking about is being more socialist.

JE001 - most Scots actually dont vote at all...

I hope they do vote yes, I live in England and if they vote yes (and stay in the EU) I'll get to send my children to university there for free! except free places will end in Scotland