To think that children do not *have* to be smacked

[Mrs4561]

I don't want to give away too much information wrt when and where etc. I was recently stood with some other mums who were having a conversation about smacking, the general opinion was that, sometimes as a last resort children need to be smacked.
The other parents in the conversation all had older children as well as toddlers, whereas I only have 22mo ds, this made me wonder if I am being naive in thinking that you can discipline a child perfectly well without smacking?
I was actually quite shocked, I didn't think people did this anymore. How can you teach a child not to hit others when you do it to them?

I am so glad my children don't flinch when I'm cross.

I am proud of that.

My own Mother hit me very badly as I was growing up, it was abuse...

at least in the way she dealt it out :(

That's a fantastic point neun.

This has come up before (many, many times) and I always find it interesting (and very rarely comment on it, actually) how a smack is seen as 'abuse' but there are people who call their child all the names under the sun/ignore their child completely/threaten them with all sorts, yet these parents are ok and other people should 'mind their own business'.

The word 'abuse' is bandied about far too often with regards to smacking and not often enough with regards to emotional neglect.

Tbh, thinking about it...where does it even work?

smacking comes at a point where the parent has lost control...it has to be a waste of time.

I never smacked dd1 and never planned to smack any dc until I had dtds and dtd1 went through a stage of refusing to get in the car seat - I cannot explain how bad it was as it had to be seen to be believed but basically everytime I got bitten, hit, my glasses pulled off, hair pulled and no matter what I did it kept happening. Other mums on the school run would offer to put her in the car for me in the hope that she'd behave for someone else - only one mum succeeded and the others gave up apologetically. I did the whole step process which did work but not ideal when on the curb and in the rain (but I did make her sit on the wet curb once in desperation). Now when you have time for this and are not in a rush eventually she would calm down and we could go home, the whole time dtd2 would be sitting in the car getting upset. The big problem came when trying to get in the car to pick up dd1 from school and dtd1 had other ideas. I am very calm and patient and my decision to smack dtd1 on her hand was not done in anger and was a decision I made when all else failed. The shock it gave her was enough for me to get her in her seat and strapped in safely. Once she had calmed down enough I talked to her about what happened and kissed her hand better. Is it how I wanted to parent? No, did it work? Yes. It's never my first resort and only in that instance when it's about safety would I even consider it. If all my dds were like dd1 then no I would never have a reason to smack. dtd1 is a very different child (apparently just like me at her age!). Can count on one had the number of times it's happened.

So no children do not NEED to be smacked but in certain situations it may be useful in achieving the right outcome, but should never be used in anger.

I stated what my views were on the subject that is all. Like I said you hit your children if you want, makes no difference to me. I am not trying to change anyones mind about this.

Isn't it lovely that the law says you can hit your children (who are smaller and weaker and more impressionable than adults) but if you hit another adult you would be charged with assault. Fantastic.

How about if another adult said some really nasty things to me, I got really angry and gave them a whack. It may teach them not to speak to me like that again, most probably they will go on and it won't make a difference to their life, but does that make it ok? I would say not, so why is it ok to do it to a child?

Caitlin, what you say about the nannies is interesting. It surely demonstrates (if any one had any doubt) that smacking isn't necessary. However, these were young women who had made a deliberate decision to be in child care and were interested enough to study child development and behaviour management, even at a basic level. Which of course many parents haven't. Im NOT saying parents should or need to 'study' but if you are inclined to think and reflect on how you parent, you are more likely not to simply do it the way it was done to you. Which for many of us WAS with the occassional smack.
Because many of us did get the occassional smack, if it was in the context of an otherwise stable and loving relationship, we grow up without too much damage. That doesn't mean it's the best or the right thing to do. By analogy- I was given all kinds of sugary crap as a child, my parents considered it a harmless treat provided I brushed my teeth. I didn't become obese, diabetic, my teeth are OK. But still, I won't give my kids sugary crap.

Of course a child doesn't "need" to be smacked. There are other effective methods of discipline. It's up to individual parents how they choose to discipline, there is no one way to do it.

When you see a child blatantly disobeying his dad at the school gate and his dad is to scared to raise his voice and exert any discipline at all in public.

Then the same boy gets in trouble for bullying younger pupils and makes daft sexist remarks to your DD, it does indeed boil your piss.

When his parents defend him for swearing, when there are staff witnesses, turns to steam.

He's a nice bright MC lad with lovely parents, non of it is necessary. He just needed boundaries and school is not the place to look for them.

Like I said you hit your children if you want, makes no difference to me.

I have never said whether I do or don't - you're jumping to conclusions.

I take exception to you referring to me being smacked as a child as 'child abuse', and my parents being a particular 'type'. And the fact that you think you have the right to look down your nose at people over small errors they have made in their parenting and lump them all in together.

That attitude stinks.

So you agree they shouldn't have smacked you then? You say it was an error...

You can discipline perfectly well without smacking.

You can also be human, not have had any good role models yourself and occasionally lose it and smack your child. That's me. It doesn't make me a perfect parent, it makes me a parent who is doing her very best to overcome her 'patterns' and break the cycle of shout/shout/smack/huff she was brought up with.

It does not mean I abuse(d) my child though and it is frankly ridiculous and hysterical to use those terms. And hurtful. I'm actually incredibly proud of my progress - well, I was till I read this thread. Now I just feel like a low-life.

Tell us then heart broken mummy. Do you smack your children or not? If not, why not?

On the subject of might is right, I did have to pin DS1 down so I could clip his toenails yesterday. I did think as he lay under my leg howlingthat surely this couldn't be teaching him any good lessons about trusting your mum.

I also threaten to take his favourite toy away when he doesn't behave well. This works like a dream but DH hates it as he thinks it's too harsh. He may be right.

Basically none of the behaviour modification techniques are going to be wonderful, but some have less potential to go horribly wrong than others.

I've already said up the thread that I don't think smacking is a great idea. It's a small error of judgement at the time. A snapshot of a whole childhood. It's hardly the same as beating children senseless on a regular basis. That's my problem with you labeling it abuse - it simply isn't.

Like I've said, it didn't affect me or my siblings. There was no fear in our household. There are no dysfunctional relationships with our parents or in our adult lives. Three of us have children now, who are all turning out to be fantastic little people themselves.

I don't have an issue with people who smack occasionally. I have issues with people who call their children 'little fuckers', who neglect their children, etc.

I don't judge parents on every tiny little thing they do.

Shallishanti that was my point
" had made a deliberate decision to be in child care and were interested enough to study child development and behaviour management, even at a basic level. "

If they can then why can't parents? I'm not just talking about parents who have actually planned when they were going to have children(as they might be more amenable to the idea) although "the accidents" are planned once the decision to go ahead is made. Parents can't be forced to get training, but wouldn't it be worth considering?

My mother was very free with smacking combined with an irrational and unpredictable temper. I had and to be honest still have little respect for her.

wrt behaviourist approaches. When we discipline our children we are not simply trying to change their behaviour, we are trying to lead them to a point where, autonomously, they will make safe, loving, pro social choices about what they do. We can't predict every choice they have to make! So we are teaching them principles ( eg don't do to others what you wouldn't like done to you, be careful around traffic, fire, electricity...). I would argue therefore that giving explanations and appropriate consequences is more likely to acheive this than a negative reinforcement (as behaviourism would call a smack/time out). So if you make a mess you have to clear it up...or if mummy has to clear it up she won't be able to put the DVD on for you. (not the best example but struggling to think of one). However behaviourism does have something useful to teach us, that rewarding good behaviour is more effective than punishing the negative. So if one twin sits nicely in the car seat, shower her with praise for being helpful, maybe even give a small treat and ignore the badly behaved on as far as possible. (sorry if you already thought of that)

Whether I smack or not is irrelevant, because I'm not judging those who do, am I?

Whichever answer I give would feed into your judgemental sneering one way or another.

I don't need to justify my parenting because I'm not doing the 'look at me, I don't do such and such, so I'm better than you' thing.

My children are all happy, healthy, bright and confident. This is mostly down to me and the way I've brought them up. Some of the parenting I've done is 'not right' according to some of the threads on this site (aside from smacking). I was called a 'lazy' parent for feeding my children jarred food - that was down to chronic depression, but that's no excuse for 'bad parenting' apparently. I also ff and tried controlled crying - didn't work for me, but I don't see an issue with other people doing it.

Whatever works for each parent.

Caitlin17 I think we had very similar mums :(

I'm just curious to know why you wouldn't smack your children seeing as it had no ill effects on yourself or your siblings. If you don't want to answer that's fine.

heartbroken the other things you talk of like CC , FF jarred food.

Do not harm children.

Hitting does.

I'm not saying you personally do it, but if its just light smacking/not abuse ...why on earth bother doing at all?

One day, parents will look back on the days of smacking and realize it was very wrong.

Oh I'm sure parents CAN learn about child devpt and behaviour management, but there aren't many opportunities I think. By the way I absolutley disagree that not smacking=no boundaries. I also agree that sometimes yu have to insist on children tolerating things they hate (hairwashing, medecines etc). I think you can then have a 2 pronged approach- first, proper explanation of why it's necessary, and aknoweledge that it's unpleasant. Then, offer a reward for putting up with whatever it is.

My sister lives in Norway (20 yrs), it is illegal there as mentioned earlier.

Somehow she found a way round it...

I'm pretty sure the reason you won't answer isn't because it is irrelevant. If you say the reasons why you wouldn't smack your children that would just back up my opinions. Abuser or not when a parent hits a child that is a single act of abuse.

Feminine

But that's my point - I wasn't harmed by it, and neither were my siblings. I don't know why my parents did it - I've never asked them because I don't care. I'm not in therapy for being smacked as a child.

Interestingly, the people who say they were smacked occasionally usually say it hasn't affected them. The people who now disrespect or dislike their parents usually describe ongoing episodes of (what I consider) physical abuse in their childhoods.

And I know full well that my chosen methods of parenting weren't harmful. But neither were my parents. And that's why I think it's wrong of people who didn't experience my childhood (and don't know how truly fucking awesome my parents are/were) to judge what happened to me as 'abuse' and thus label my parents as 'abusers', when that's simply not the case at all.

It's actually very patronising - telling me I was abused. Er, no, actually I wasn't.