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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

feminists

225 replies

babywipesaremagic · 04/12/2013 12:40

This is the first time I have started a thread, I lurk often and post sometimes.

I know that a lot of MNers are proud feminists and this is often mentioned in posts then followed with claims that femininity is anti feminist. For example make up and time that a woman spends on her appearance is a blow to feminism.

I strongly believe in equal rights for EVERYONE, regardless of gender, sexuality, age, race. My question to any feminists who are reading is do you feel that women need to be more like men in order to be equal, and if so does this not mean that the patriarchal views of past generations have simply been passed onto us. So you can be a successful woman, but only if you downplay your looks and gentler side.

Because to me that isn't really a victory at all, more of a surrender.

OP posts:
Justforlaughs · 04/12/2013 12:43
GodRestTEEMerryGenTEEmen · 04/12/2013 12:45

Find me one thread, outside of the actual feminist section, which is too scary for any sane person to use, that says it's anti feminist to wear make up etc.

::runs behind Just for saying you have to be insane to post on FWR::

But you do. They are fucking terrifying.

SantasLittleLineRunner · 04/12/2013 12:45

I know that a lot of MNers are proud feminists and this is often mentioned in posts then followed with claims that femininity is anti feminist

No it isn't.

HTH

meditrina · 04/12/2013 12:45

??

How on earth did you get such a wrong impression!

wem · 04/12/2013 12:46

Your post is full of generalisations: what women are like, what men are like, what feminists are like.

I absolutely can't speak for any other feminists, but for me, a major part of my feminism is the idea that stereotypes like the ones you imply in your post are damaging, to both women and men.

Original poster
babywipesaremagic · 04/12/2013 12:46

Awwwww don't be like that.

It bothers me, I like pretty dresses but also occasionally use my brain.

OP posts:
SantasLittleLineRunner · 04/12/2013 12:47

Maybe you could use your brain by giving a more accurate impression of feminists on MN.

NeoFaust · 04/12/2013 12:48

I'm not that fond of feminism, but the main argument I've seen them making here is not that feminine things are bad, it's forcing women to be ONLY feminine (and, in all fairness, men to be only masculine) that they see as being a bad thing.

GodRestTEEMerryGenTEEmen · 04/12/2013 12:49

Wait wait wait wait, so you're saying that you've read, somewhere here on MN, that you can't wear a pretty dress and use your brain?

Are we on the same website?

Or are you just being a goady fucker?

::awaits deletion::

meditrina · 04/12/2013 12:50

"but also occasionally use my brain"

Perhaps you could do so more frequently, so such a comment becomes otiose?

Ubik1 · 04/12/2013 12:51

Oh God

do you feel that women need to be more like men in order to be equal

No - but ask yourself this: what defines male and female apart from basic biology? Why don't men wear lipstick? Why is it more acceptable for men to work full time when they have children? Why do you run round with the hoover when your MIL is popping over while your husband watches the football?

Are this characteristics babies are born with? Or are they learned? And if they are learned then how can we change our environment so that people with vaginas getter a fairer deal?

HTH

(and yes posting in FWR with this sort of question is insane)

Feminine · 04/12/2013 12:52

Yay...

HenriettaMaria · 04/12/2013 12:53

I know that a lot of MNers are proud feminists and this is often mentioned in posts then followed with claims that femininity is anti feminist. For example make up and time that a woman spends on her appearance is a blow to feminism.

Honestly? I've been on here for a couple of years or so and I have never read a post that says that. Or anything approaching it.

SantasLittleLineRunner · 04/12/2013 12:54

I think you must be imagining things, OP.

HesterShaw · 04/12/2013 12:54

Why would any woman not be a feminist? How odd.

randomquicknamechange · 04/12/2013 12:55

You are very brave op.

I think you are right in a way but only because MN is full of misguided feminists who have never really understood it but just think they should so so discuss their understanding as the true basis of feminism and it often isn't.

Yellowcake · 04/12/2013 12:56

Could you give examples of such posts, OP? Because this is a very, very hackneyed argument going back to and beyond mythic claims about bra-burning and compulsory dungarees. It is also one on which there is no general consensus. Feminism is a broad church. Not all feminists need to agree on anything other than wanting equality of opportunity, pay, education etc for all women and men.

I am a feminist. I dye my hair. I do not shave my armpits. I cannot get excited about whether anyone else does or not. Yes, perhaps you eradicate your body hair/diet/Botox because you are a crushed, brainwashed victim of patriarchal attitudes to women's bodies needing to observe certain criteria of sexual attractiveness, or perhaps, having thought the issues through, you do it for yourself alone.

Be the CEO of Microsoft or a cupcake-making SAHM. All feminism wants is that you have the education, opportunity, access to childcare etc etc to do either one.

manicinsomniac · 04/12/2013 12:58

The thing is you can't put feminists together as a group and know what one feminist thinks just because another one thinks it. They're not homogenous.

I have three friends who are passionately feminist. For one this means that she supports the right of every woman to be as 'girly', 'housewifey', 'mannish', 'high powered' or any other stereotype that they want to be. For another it seems to centre around her passion for the rights of transgendered and disabled people (don't actually understand her views very well) and for the third, who defines herself as a 'rad-fem', it is much more about being consciously unshaved/un made up and almost anti-man.

WallaceWindsock · 04/12/2013 12:58

I think I can see slightly where OP is coming from in that often on threads about make up or fashion some posters will pop up and say that it's societies conditioning that leads to women being pressured into wearing makeup or grooming themselves. I think OP has mistakenly mixed that up with other feminist discussions and has taken it to mean that all feminists think that all feminine things are thereby wrong. Or something. Or maybe I've completely misunderstood. Grin

SunshineMMum · 04/12/2013 12:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LoonvanBoon · 04/12/2013 13:04

What do you mean by femininity? Do you have some positive definition of what it means, or do you just mean "not like men"? And in that case, not like men in which ways exactly?

youretoastmildred · 04/12/2013 13:06

Obviously

"this is often mentioned in posts then followed with claims that femininity is anti feminist. For example make up and time that a woman spends on her appearance is a blow to feminism. "

is bollocks, but there is something to consider in

" do you feel that women need to be more like men in order to be equal, and if so does this not mean that the patriarchal views of past generations have simply been passed onto us."

It is completely straw-man nonsense that feminists want all women to buzz-cut their heads and wear men's suits, but I do think we need to be careful, as a society, to watch out for internalised misogyny in the form of a knee-jerk despising of the traditionally feminine. for instance, the lofty "if your dp refuses to clean, so can you" is a bit sad - it is often said in a snitty way as if refusing to clean makes you a better person than someone who likes a pretty, clean, comfortable home, and knows how to make it that way

curlew · 04/12/2013 13:13

There is a strong argument that it is anti feminist for women to be coerced by the pressures of society to change their bodies in order to make themselves acceptable-a genuine choice to wear make up or whatever is fine, feeling obliged to wear it in order to fit society's norms- not fine.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 04/12/2013 13:15

'My question to any feminists who are reading is do you feel that women need to be more like men in order to be equal'

No, because I'm a feminist.

When feminists say femininity is a bit crap, they also say masculinity is a bit crap. The argument (and not everyone who identifies as a feminist would make it, but it's the one you're thinking of) is that gender is a fairly unpleasant social construct. Gender tells men and women they can only act in certain ways ('it's not feminine to have short hair' or 'it's not masculine to be emotional'). That, to me, seems silly and for lots of people, really upsetting.

Simple.