feminists

[babywipesaremagic]

This is the first time I have started a thread, I lurk often and post sometimes.

I know that a lot of MNers are proud feminists and this is often mentioned in posts then followed with claims that femininity is anti feminist. For example make up and time that a woman spends on her appearance is a blow to feminism.

I strongly believe in equal rights for EVERYONE, regardless of gender, sexuality, age, race. My question to any feminists who are reading is do you feel that women need to be more like men in order to be equal, and if so does this not mean that the patriarchal views of past generations have simply been passed onto us. So you can be a successful woman, but only if you downplay your looks and gentler side.

Because to me that isn't really a victory at all, more of a surrender.

I believe, and the neurological research is with me on this, that there is very little innate difference between males and females (other than obvious physical differences). Most gendered behaviour is the result of social conditioning and its impact on the plastic brain as we mature. So I think that the very concept of "like men" is fundamentally flawed long before you get to a question of whether women should aspire to that fictitious state. What I would like (and I know I'm not likely to see it in my lifetime) is for gender-based social conditioning to be eliminated so that individual preferences can be expressed without constant conscious or unconscious reference to that framework.

So I don't give two figs whether you wear make-up or dye your hair or spend hours each day doing your hair, any more than I care when (say) Peter Andre does the same. I do care that you take all that behaviour, parcel it up and label it "femininity".

Btw, reading tee's post reminds me something:

You can say something isn't feminist, without saying it's anti-feminist.

The MN blogfest of infamous memory involved one of the panellists saying that making jam (for example) wasn't a feminist act. It's not. It's not un-feminist either, it's simply not one of those activities that strikes a blow in either direction.

I think often people read a statement 'such and such isn't a feminist activity' and think what's meant is 'such and such is antifeminist'.

Reading my post? What did I say?

The threads about pamper parties for little girls or kitchen/cleaning/beauty playsets are some that I am referring to, where many women say they would never allow their child to do these things as it reinforces the idea of 'women's work' and this will lead to their dd growing up with ingrained ideas as to what women should do.

Some girls will grow up and actually they are interested in the beauty industry, go on to open a hairdressers and feed these ideas in others.

The way I see that is that little girl grew up to do something she loves, became a business woman and is a wonderful role model for other women.

Only you wanted the OP to find someone saying such-and-such is antifeminist. And it occurred to me she might instead have been seeing 'this isn't feminist' and interpreting it as meaning 'this is antifeminist'.

It wasn't so much a response to you as a tangent, sorry.

I have to back up the op somewhat, I have definitely read that hair shaving is bowing to patriarchal societal pressures on conformity.

I am not saying that this is the view of all feminists as I am told frequently that y'all pick and choose the peripherals that apply to your own brand of feminism within the central tenet of equality

Cross post.

Ahhh, I see - I saw one of the threads about little girls and pampering and didn't feel up for the bunfight, but this could stir it up I guess.

I don't really follow your logic though. If parents don't want a stereotype to get ingrained, that'd imply they're worried their child won't be loving something for its own sake but will have been pushed into thinking it's the right thing to do.

So it wouldn't be about the children who grow up and love their jobs, would it, it'd be about the children who grow up and think 'I can only do x, I can't do y'. And that would be sad.

I have never got from here that feminists hate femininity at all (including on FWR). What I have seen, is a lot of debate and questioning of the pressures a lot of women feel to conform to a stereotype of a woman, created by years of culture and societal pressure for women to be like that.

I think the questioning is healthy. As someone who is not graceful or elegant, and at 5ft11 is definitely more Miranda Hart than Amanda Holden, I really struggle with this myself, so the questioning is good. For me it's about being accepting and respecting of who we really are, not about shoe-horning ourselves into certain clothes, shoes, jobs, roles, etc. that might be otherwise unsuitable, just because we are women.

FWIW I see quite a few regular posters from FWR on the Style and Beauty Boards too.

I think you need to do a bit more reading about Feminism to be honest as you seem confused about what it is.

'I have definitely read that hair shaving is bowing to patriarchal societal pressures on conformity.'

So have I read that. I've probably also typed it.

I don't understanding it as meaning that feminists believe women should be more like men, unless you honestly believe that underarm hair is one of the main things that makes a woman more like a man.

What exactly are you hoping to gain from this thread, OP? A bunfight? Inspiration to use your brain more than occasionally? Links to websites for pretty dresses?

Let's take body hair as an example.

Views I have seen on here:

1. "I shave body hair simply to please myself and no-one else."
   (Poster's honestly held belief, don't personally agree, but each to their own).

2. "You can choose to shave body hair without being a slave to the
   patriarchy."
   (Yup, very few people would disagree - I think I've only seen one poster take issue with this).

3. "None of our choices about appearance are made in a cultural vacuum, and to that extent, choosing to shave body hair is not an entirely free choice."
   (You couldn't believe 1 & 3 at the same time, but 3 seems like a reasonable and not particularly extreme view to me).

4. "You are not allowed to be a feminist if you shave."
   (Not true - many feminists have pointed out that they do shave, but that they also subscribe to view 3 which is where the feminism comes in).

5. "If you don't shave, you're not feminine."
   (Plain daft as a viewpoint. Fortunately seems to be a very minority viewpoint).

6. "If you don't shave, you smell".
   (Bloody offensive point of view and factually untrue. Fortunately also seems to be a very minority viewpoint).

So yes, you can find (I think) one poster who fits the "straw-person feminist" view on this subject. You can find a very small number who fit the "straw-handmaiden" category. But most fall into two categories: "I'm not a feminist but..." (I still want equal pay, voting rights, my own bank balance, equal educational opportunities for my daughter - I just don't see what pit hair has to do with this); I am a feminist, but I don't have a problem with occasionally dressing in a way that my partner will find sexually attractive (though I do object to the idea that everything a woman does is secondary to whether she's thought of as sexually attractive).

With the pamper parties, yes the birthday girl may love it and grow up to be a beauty therapist, but what about the little girl who goes along, doesn't love it, but is given the idea that this is what it is to be female and therefore she doesn't measure up. Would you invite boys to a pamper party? If not, why not? What about the little boy who wants to grow up to be a beauty therapist? What does he learn about what a man is supposed to be?

hahahahaha

to the op

I'm following you now LRD.

As a mother of boys who love to play with my hair thing, make up, nail polish and anything else they fancy yes I would invite boys. I don't think it will brainwash them into believing they need rainbow nails everyday in later life.

Cool.

(That last to Tee not the OP).

YABU. I'm a proud feminist.

I think it's healthy to question 'femininity' and 'masculinity'. I don't see innate differences between men and women, but I do see massive differences in the way children are socialised, and the expectations 'society' places on the adults.

Oh, and I don't want to be, or behave like a man.

I like 'pretty' things but use my brain a lot. I would rather be judged on the contents of my character and my brain, than on my looks and what I wear.

So, OP, if your little boy's best friend had a pamper party and he was excluded because it was only for girls, how would that make you feel? Your post specified little girls pamper parties, I would have much less of a problem with a society where noone passed comment on boys having pamper parties, but I don't think we're there yet are we?

What I as a feminist dislike is the pressure on women to be feminine, NOT the women themselves for being feminine.

And I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.

At the moment, babywipes, girls aren't short of encouragement to develop an interest in the beauty industry. Go into almost any toy shop and you'll notice that they (probably) have gendered toy displays and (almost certainly) sell products with very gendered marketing.

Taking a look at the first few pages of Toys'R'Us's "Science" section online, for example, let's look at which popular products are marketed solely with images of boys:

Crystal Laboratory Science Kit
Tin Can Robot
Wild Science Ant-O-Sphere
Chemistry At Home Science Kit

...and which are marketed solely with images of girls:

Bath Bomb Factory
Face Mask Laboratory
Perfume Laboratory
Shampoo Laboratory

There are science sets marketed at both genders, of course there are (although I do wonder where toy shops with heavily gendered displays choose to shelve them). Step forward and take a bow, for example, Galt Magic Science, Indian Stick Insect Kit and Radioactive Science.

But there are no general science sets that picture only girls (no boys). And there are no beauty-related science sets that picture boys at all.

When they turn on the television and stray beyond Cbeebies even very small girls are bombarded with ads for Lelli Kelly shoes ("with free make-up set"), Girls' World styling heads, Barbie dolls, etc., etc. I challenge you to find a single six-year-old who doesn't know that girls are "supposed to" like make-up, nail varnish, hair styling, sparkly clothing, etc. Or a single thirty-year-old who says "Well, with hindsight I would have gone into hairdressing and maybe opened my own salon, but I just had no idea that the beauty industry existed or was a possible employment path for women until it was too late. Curse you, Mother..."

Let me give you an example from your own post.

How many hairdressers are 'successful businesswomen'? Most are poorly paid part-timers. But even the 'successful ones' are hardly rolling in it. My DSis's ex-MIL ran her own hairdressing business for 20 years and was taking home £100 a week.

The woman who owns my local hairdressers / beauty shop was back at work 3 weeks post C-section because she couldn't afford to pay someone to cover her. This is an high end salon in a well off part of London.

How many female hairdressers have their own branded ranges in Boots: Nicky Clarke, Vidal Sassoon, Charles Worthington, Trevor Sorbie - can't think of one woman.

Funny that the careers that women most suit or are guided to are also the low paid ones.

OP - I agree with you. I've just read the thread complaining about the little girls "preening" kit and I've been wondering the same thing.

I like putting make-up on & 'pampering' activities. That doesn't make me silly or mean that I am not well-educated

The way people look and present themselves is an important issue, whether they are male or female. It affects the way that people are seen by others, in situations such as job interviews. The majority of working people do attend interviews as some point so that it relevant to everyone!

Pink products are marketed at little girls because a lot of little girls really like pink. Most of them grow out of it, I don't see many adult women strolling around in pink wellies, princess dresses & tiaras...

I did comment on the other thread that I wasn't allowed Barbie dolls as a child because my mother disapproved. There was a time of hairy armpits, no bra and lots of ranting about things like Barbie dolls. Maybe that's why I am reluctant to identify myself as a "feminist" because I don't have good memories of that phase!