feminists

[babywipesaremagic]

This is the first time I have started a thread, I lurk often and post sometimes.

I know that a lot of MNers are proud feminists and this is often mentioned in posts then followed with claims that femininity is anti feminist. For example make up and time that a woman spends on her appearance is a blow to feminism.

I strongly believe in equal rights for EVERYONE, regardless of gender, sexuality, age, race. My question to any feminists who are reading is do you feel that women need to be more like men in order to be equal, and if so does this not mean that the patriarchal views of past generations have simply been passed onto us. So you can be a successful woman, but only if you downplay your looks and gentler side.

Because to me that isn't really a victory at all, more of a surrender.

Ooh, me eyerolls. [ouch]

Feminism is collection of different ideologies and not a monolithic opinion. Some feminists disagree with each other! Traditional femininity as an option for women to express themselves is not anti feminist. Enforced femininity is.

HTH!

"I strongly believe in equal rights for EVERYONE, regardless of gender"

Congrats! You're a feminist.

I'd like to see an actual example of what OP described in her opener. As it stands, it just looks like deliberate misrepresentation of feminism. And that never happens, does it ?

Hello Buffy, I used to be Spartacus. But now I'm not

I never said I want a feminist and I don't think of feminism as a dirty word.

The question really was whether feminism/feminist goals, whatever you want to call them have been forced in some ways away from the desire for equality and have compromised to fit into a 'man's world'.

I didn't say feminists want everyone's head shaved or anything like that, just that being 'overly feminine' for lack of a better term can lead to you being judged as anti-feminism.

I agree with the poster who said that all women have a vested interest in feminism (paraphrased).

Let's try it this way. I don't like peppers. I accept that other people like peppers.

The patriarchy: Eat peppers, because of your very nature you MUST like them. Also, men, don't eat peppers, you weird, unnatural, freaks.

Most pepper-free ists: We defend MrsTP's right and the right of all women to eat or not eat peppers depending on their taste.

Some scary people (a tiny minority): No one should eat peppers, or just men, to redress the centuries and forced pepper eating by the patriarchy. In fact, we should live in pepper-free communes.

The patriarchal press: That's what all pepper-free ists wants. They hate you and your families and want you to live in pepper-free communes.

Most pepper-free ists:

*wasn't. Not want

And MrsTP I don't think 50% of pink stuff is given to boys but equality doesn't mean equal shares, means equal choice.

I'm fucking gawjus but what is this 'gentler side' you speak of, OP?

I've seen many threads about women wearing makeup and shaving as victims of the patriarchy. I'm surprised that people say they've never seen it.
But that's just some feminists view, not every single one of them.
There's a very broad spectrum of feminism on here.

I believe, and the neurological research is with me on this, that there is very little innate difference between males and females (other than obvious physical differences).

What research would that be then...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25198063

Re the argos catalogue:

Toy prams - overwhelmingly pink

Toy cookers - much better, but still about 50% of pink and the ones which are pink are almost sickly in their OTT pink-ness - there is no green and blue cooker with pink knobs for example, it's very all or nothing. There are a few nice examples of "looks like a mini version of a real one" though.

Dolls' houses probably about 75% pink.

I imagine they stock about 20 times the amount of objects by the look of the choice nowadays.

Why would one set of children consistently choose one colour out of all of them without societal pressure? Genetics? Is there is pink gene on the X chromosome?

No, it doesn't. Equality means equal access. So in my line of work I accept that some companies have various schemes and initiatives to encourage women to reach the higher, board-level positions. In theory, they have equal choice to apply for these jobs, but in practice they either don't apply, don't get them when they do apply or don't get shoulder-tapped at city functions

So companies work to provide equality of access to opportunities, not equal opportunities.

Delusions of Gender is a great book which explores studies about gender differences. Very well researched. I read it when studying research methods at university and it chimed a lot with me. You don't have to know about RM to read it, but it does make it interesting if you do.

"I didn't say feminists want everyone's head shaved or anything like that, just that being 'overly feminine' for lack of a better term can lead to you being judged as anti-feminism".

By whom? Other feminists? I'd say that this may have been the case with certain branches of second wave feminism, but for me, it doesn't ring true with most modern day feminism(s) and feminists I've encountered. It does, however, ring true with a lot of anti-feminist rhetoric "feminists all want you to be like this" etc.

at MrsTP Fuck the pepperiarchy!

^^ To OP

"I just don't like the idea that girls should be guided away from 'girly' things because they will grow up to value looks above all else."

I think you're over-simplifying. Girls already grow up focusing heavily on looks. We're socially conditioned to start conversations with little girls by telling them how nice they look. The number of pre-teen children treated in hospital for eating disorders has tripled in four years. The message that how they look is the most important thing about them is one that's being presented to our daughters every day of their lives through all sorts of different channels. Some of us feel a responsibility to try to actively counteract that message and ensure our children hear at least one dissenting voice. We shouldn't have to, because the message shouldn't be there in the first place, but until that central problem is resolved we're left fighting a rearguard action.

Fuck the pepperiarchy indeed.

I wonder whether the people who believe little girls just genuinely prefer to play with toy kitchens and little boys with guns are the same people who solemnly claim that advertising doesn't 'work' on them, they just like what they like.

Hipo did you read the second part of the article you linked?! By, er, a neuroscientist. Whereas the study the headline comes from was carried out by a research department.