feminists

[babywipesaremagic]

This is the first time I have started a thread, I lurk often and post sometimes.

I know that a lot of MNers are proud feminists and this is often mentioned in posts then followed with claims that femininity is anti feminist. For example make up and time that a woman spends on her appearance is a blow to feminism.

I strongly believe in equal rights for EVERYONE, regardless of gender, sexuality, age, race. My question to any feminists who are reading is do you feel that women need to be more like men in order to be equal, and if so does this not mean that the patriarchal views of past generations have simply been passed onto us. So you can be a successful woman, but only if you downplay your looks and gentler side.

Because to me that isn't really a victory at all, more of a surrender.

I quite like peppers

I am a huuuuge CeleryHater though

Does it matter why they pick pink though? The colour isn't evil, by making a stand and saying a girl can't have pink tat isn't that just as bad as if I said it to my boys?

We are all members of this society and there will always be pressure, whether overt or subliminal, it isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Yes. Yes it does.

hipocondriaco, you'll notice that I said "Most gendered behaviour is the result of social conditioning and its impact on the plastic brain as we mature" which is very specifically one of the theories being put forward by the experts in the news article you linked to explain the observable differences in connectivity.

If you're genuinely interested in the relevant research, I recommend reading Lise Eliot's Pink Brain, Blue Brain which is similar to Delusions of Gender but Dr Eliot is herself an neuroscientist so approaches it from that perspective. It's full of citations for relevant research.

A boy came up to my 2yo in Toys R Us the other day and told her she was playing with a boys toy. He wasn't much bigger than her so maybe 4 yo. She was playing with a car. Had it been a pink Barbie brand Princess car with extra sparkles, I bet he wouldn't have said that. Am I wrong to dislike aspects of the society that led to that exchange between the children?

Am I wrong to think that society, marketing and the patriarchy will lead her to pick the pink car, somewhere down the road because she isn't allowed the cool, loud, fast, exciting car, just the pink, pretty one? That comment, and hundreds like it, and advertising and older people, and school and everything else is changing my child. And everyone's children.

"Does it matter why they pick pink though?"

Yes. In fact, that's pretty much the only thing about the act of picking pink that matters. As you said, the colour isn't evil the fact that they pick pink is inn and of itself value-neutral. It's the pressures and expectations and assumptions and questions of self and identity the "why" of picking pink -- that are important.

"Does it matter why they pick pink though? The colour isn't evil, by making a stand and saying a girl can't have pink tat isn't that just as bad as if I said it to my boys?"

But why can't toys just be in the colour they come in and all children can have whatever favourite colour they want?

There are 30 toy prams in Argos - 21 of them are pink, there are 20 doll's houses - 19 of them are pink or mostly pink.

I don't know how many actual prams are pink, but I suspect it's nowhere near 70% and there are no pink houses near me.

Choice implies equal availability and that there is actually something else to choose between, do you really think that all girls prefer all their toys to be pink?

Toys shouldn't be gendered, they should just be toys and if some of them are pink or red or blue or silver then it's a choice.

Of course it matters why they pick pink - because that's what we want to counter.

It's not the little girl liking pink which is the problem, it's everything in society telling her "girls like pink" that is the problem. Not because it's pink, if it WAS just pink, there would be no problem! The problem is that it's reinforcing the idea that girls and boys are different and this feeds into every other kind of sexism.

In fact it's worse than that, even - when I was little I remember thinking smugly that girls had it sooo much better because we could choose to wear clothes of any colour but if a boy wore pink or purple he would be laughed at - therefore, girls have more choice. Awesome!

It's not like that any more. If you look at a girls' clothes section in a shop, or in any nursery school or infant classroom at the children's coat pegs, you can tell immediately which pegs belong to girls and which to boys, and that's without reading any names on the pegs. Because every girl has a pink or purple coat, whereas the boys have yellow, blue, green, black, brown, red, loads of colours. Because boys are people and could feasibly have loads of different colours that they like, but girls are part of the special interest group "female" and like pink, or purple.

I have to go to work so I can't elaborate on the feeding into other kinds of sexism part but sexism thrives on the belief that men and women are inherently different - so everything that enhances this reinforces that base line for sexism. Even if we are wired differently, in 2013 there is no reason that a woman can't do what a man does and vice versa, biological functions excepted. So it doesn't make sense to keep dredging up old myths that we're so different when the idea of those differences is what keeps sexism alive and well.

We must cover up our flaws to render us more palatable and ready for the male gaze. Altering our appearance is part of the sexual competition and evaluation that humankind participates in.

But so much of the beauty industry is orientated towards minimising some aspect of being a Woman as opposed to maximising it. We have to control our brows, tame our hair, hide our complexion flaws. The only thing allowed to run free with the wolves are our eyelashes and our bouncy tresses and then only because they are signifiers of sexual and breeding prime.

And I say that as a person who loves her fashion. But I see the messages and memes for what they are and have always tried to decode them for my children.

Hipocondriaco (hope I've spelled your name right) - there is an in depth discussion of that research article here in FWR at the moment (includes references to quite a few responses by other neuroscientists who are a bit at the research, to put it mildly). Please don't be put off by it being in FWR - no dungarees are necessary to read this thread, and no one will check you for hirsuteness on entry!

I will get behind 'fuck the pepperiarchy'.

I don't get behind every feminist. Or every patriarcist. Which doesn't seem to be a word, but you know what I mean.

And, actually, I don't want equality. I want even handedness. They aren't the same thing. All people are not equal. Never will be.

And, try as hard as you like, but I will never be exactly equal to my husband just because he's a foot taller than me. I'll never reach the upper shelves without a stool. So we are, by build, and gender, unequal.

How do you define feminine?

A quick search on the internet came up with two (to me opposing) descriptions. I think a lot of people would identify with the first description. I prefer the second and see no clash between being feminine in that way and being a feminist, though I have a problem . I think associating being feminine with outward appearance is the problem for me. I can see that there are some traits that we might call more feminine and some more masculine but for me they are more about behaviour and personality traits than outward appearance.

Description 1
a woman who is modest and ladylike...
she's not loud, boisterous, or mouthy.
she is not a tomboy.
she is not an aggressive "career woman"
she takes care of her appearance and tries to look pretty.
she has a soft, "female-sounding" voice.
she has long hair, not short hair.
she gets manicures and pedicures.
she has curves, not muscle.
she has soft skin, not rough skin...

Description 2
Compassionate
Nurturing
Warm
Communicative
Flexible
Gentle
Sensitive

Bumbling - I have some trouble with the second list, because I worry about it being taken as proscriptive. What does one say of a man who's nurturing or gentle? Or a woman who's uncommunicative or abrasive? That they're not a "real man", or a "real woman", that they're somehow imperfect specimens of their sex? (I find this an issue I really struggle with as someone who is assertive by nature and highly analytical - ever since my early teens I've come across people who've wanted to see me as somehow "masculine" in some sort of biologically essentialist sense because of this, whereas I see myself as a woman who just happens to be interested in things my particular society pigeonholes under the rather arbitrary gender stereotype of "masculine").

But so much of the beauty industry is orientated towards minimising some aspect of being a Woman as opposed to maximising it.

Yes, yes, to this. And I am also a feminist who is interested in fashion.

OP, I think you are equating the feminist ideology of challenging societal gender constructs with women being more like men. This is an incorrect assumption. I think I am safe in saying that most feminists do not support using male gender expression as the standard.

I have major difficulties with that second list. It erases people like my DH, who ticks far more of that list than I do. It means that women who are assertive or abrasive aren't Real Women.

I also think the idea that certain personality types are masculine and certain are feminine is - to be gentle - absolute codswollop. Socialization, particularly early socialization, plays such a huge part of shaping personalities. There's been some fantastic research done on this (and I'm hoping someone can link to it) - think about how differently people treat even tiny newborns. How babies in pink dresses are praised for being quiet, still, gentle, and babies in blue rompers are praised for being active and loud - same babies, obv. If girls are always praised when they're gentle and given little baby dolls to nurture, is it a surprise when they grow up to be more communicative and to nurture, rather than to be boisterous like their brothers?

I liked (well, you know, for a given value of "like"...) one MNer's anecdote about being out shopping with her (neutrally-dressed, indeterminately-haired) toddler DC. Child was carrying the shopping basket and in quick succession she had encounters with two different strangers:

Stranger 1: Oh, look, she's really into her shopping already, haha!

Stranger 2: Ah, are you helping Mummy? There's a big strong boy!

Hipo did you read the second part of the article you linked?! By, er, a neuroscientist.

Yes I did, and the second part essentially says "we're not sure about the reasons". Which isn't exactly a glowing endorsement of feminist theory.

Why do all feminists hate celery? And what does it say about me that I love yhe stuff?

Had the current thread re the pink dressing table sparked this OP? I have to admit I've come away form that thread thinking that there are some people here who think it's not possible to love girly things (including enjoying putting makeup on etc) and not being damaged by it in some way.

I thought that feminism was about being who you are, whatever that is, and being okay with it without having to "submit" to being what society says you should based on your gender...

I'm confused.

Stealth Feminists don't like celery because all right thinking people hate celery. This says that you are clearly wrongheaded in the extreme.

I love that everyone has different definitions of what feminism is.

Stealth I think it's great. I know people who are veterans of the first wave of immigration from the Caribbean after the war. They fought for their jobs, homes, rights and families. They refer to themselves as Coloured. Their GC despair about this and they roll their eyes at their GC but it is all part of the same struggle. None of them are wrong in their beliefs. Just a product of different times.

They all hate celery though. Otherwise they would definitely count as wrong in their beliefs.

Can you explain the celery situation! What do you mean by right thinking people hate celery? I love celery.

Mignonette

But so much of the beauty industry is orientated towards minimising some aspect of being a Woman as opposed to maximising it. We have to control our brows, tame our hair, hide our complexion flaws. The only thing allowed to run free with the wolves are our eyelashes and our bouncy tresses and then only because they are signifiers of sexual and breeding prime.

Err, cleavage, legs, hip movement? The entire of the shoe industry is based upon the last two - maximising leg length and hip movement.