to think that this article is just another way to sneer at sahms? Motherism?

[usuallyright]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/18/sorry-but-being-a-mother-is-not-the-most-important-job-in-the-world

Whilst I agree with some of it, I don't like the sneery tone. There are many similar articles around at the moment about Mothers who choose to stay at home.
Imagine if someone wrote a similar article about working Mothers.
It's just another excuse to pour scorn on Mothers and their choices, which are often complex decisions, not a knee jerk decision to be a martyr..

Happy to agree that WOHM feel that on this thread they are being attacked

I think that In the media, government policies and various real life situations that SAHPs are attacked. On various threads on mumsnet I have also seen SAHPs attacked as well as WOHP

Millymollyandmax - I will be going back to work because I love and would miss my job and not because I have cleaners and gardeners that need paying!! I also don't have massive debts! I think your sweeping statement is very unfair.

Rufus - I guess us women are damned if we do and damned if we don't whereas the men get to carry on with their lives with no judgement passed

These articles do not compare like with like. Poncey Guardian journalist prob living in N London vs. SAHM in Swindon.

I reckon this "journalist" would be more sneery about a woman working in a building society in Swindon than a SAHM from her own circle.

And what makes a working woman, anyway? Does writer of article genuinely make enough money to support her family? Anyone can say, "I'm a writer" and make nothing or just peanuts.

It's all people puffing themselves up.

This won't end well

Who says both aren't equal.

We live in a modern world and women can do what they like,no Taliban here.

The fact is though that few companies will let both parents go part time soooo as a family you have to choose and in my RL experience most women choose to be the one to have a period at home- because they want to.The ones that don't or earn more (like my sister)go out to work.

Only on MN are women expected to stay at home.

"I disagree that SAHM are the ones getting 'popped at' and actually think it is the other way round."

Do you know what - I think everyone is getting popped at. It has been said many times before, but surely feminism, female solidarity, broad mindedness and just basic kindness all dictate that there are many ways to do this. How to manage the twin pillars of money earning and childcare is an almost impossible dilemma and we all find our own solutions; plus most of us will have some doubts/guilt/frustration about our solutions along the way. Please don't let us judge each other as well.

writerwannabe I think the point millymolly was trying to make was that the debts come when you have children. Childcare is very expensive, especially with more than one child. It can be hard, if not impossible, to afford to go to work. With the best will in the world this is very hard to imagine before you have children.

youstole - me and DH sat down for almost 2 hours with a calculator a few days ago working out childcare care in relation to our salaries etc and came to the decision to definitely have only one child There is no way we could afford childcare for two and we couldn't survive on my husband's salary alone. My sister has two children (single mum as of recently) and her childcare costs during the summer holidays will be about £1'800

Everyone has been popped at! Lets stop the popping.

Although, I agree with laniekazan, the snobby Guardian journalist with no idea does deserve to be popped at a little bit.

ghostly - your thread made me think about Pringles....once you pop you just can't stop

But children cost,you know that before you have them.Either way if you are a sahp or a wp there will be costs either in loss of salary or childcare so you cut your cloth accordingly for that period of time.

And yes re the Guardian journalist- either way it's lazy journalism.

Good for you writer. It's ridiculously expensive isn't it. However some SAHP can't afford to work so do their own childcare. Some choose to. Some, like millymolly pointed out, run their own business as well as SAH. There isn't a one size fits all approach and certainly no SAHP I know sit around all day or climb the walls with boredom!

I think after she split with the children's father earlier this year (they had been together for 10 years) she did look into the option of giving up work and being a SAHM to try and save costs but she said she would go crazy if she didn't have that 'time out' and adult company that her job provides. I think she sees it as respite - even more so now she is a single parent and doesn't have much chance to get out the house and socialise on her own. It's all quite sad really....

Sorry, only read the first and last few pages so hope I'm not going over old ground.

I think the article isn't about the way women talk to one another - it's about the patriarchal set up of society - the way advertising and the media portrays motherhood (her sliding scale). I don't think she is meaning that women sneer at other women - just maybe she is saying that some women have adopted the stance without as much thought as maybe it should have.

I agree with the article that there is a lot out there that lauds motherhood over fatherhood (or parenthood) and transforms a woman's role in society as soon as she has a child in a way that isn't the case for men. I think she is talking about the pervasive mother worship that enables men to say that they would love to be more involved with their kids - without ever having to make the lifestyle changes women do as parents.

You just don't hear 'fatherhood is the most important job in the world' because no one considers fatherhood to be a 'job' as in a replacement career. This drives the low low rates of stay at home fathers. And as for the idea of 'full time mum' - does that make all working fathers 'part time'? This is exactly the problem.

And sorry MillyMollyMax but I wonder what the average hourly rate of pay is for those little businesses? I see too many SAHM with these little businesses that I reckon may just about break even - but more often than not lose money and certainly wouldn't be a going concern if they had to bring in a meaningful income. They are hobbies. Not always, but mostly.

Janey, there is NO defensiveness as that would imply some self-justification on my part. I was highlighting the fact that your rather your line about 'default' SAHPs is inaccurate for some and condescending to all!

There are so many variables in the way parents choose to work and raise their children it is impossible and rather silly to generalise or make assumptions about any of the choices.
If you find the perfect way that works for your family then you are lucky

No 'rather your'.

And sorry MillyMollyMax but I wonder what the average hourly rate of pay is for those little businesses? I see too many SAHM with these little businesses that I reckon may just about break even - but more often than not lose money and certainly wouldn't be a going concern if they had to bring in a meaningful income. They are hobbies. Not always, but mostly

even if this is mostly true (and I know my Pampered Chef friends makes a very good sum of money through this, better than many go-out-to-work-jobs) why is this relevant?

"I meant that when they get back from work they still have to find the time to do everything like the housework duties etc - sorry should have been clearer"

But there's more of it to do if you've been in the house?

Think you are missing the point. One working mum we know earns a 6 figure salary yet after tax at 40%, 3 children in full time boarding school because she works long hours, the cleaner, gardener, clothes she has to buy, lunches, travel etc her monthly salary is reduced to £50 per month if she keeps to a budget. If she wants to treat herself then it goes on credit card. This might be an extreme case but us with small businesses earn when we want to without having to cover for stuff we do ourselves.

Yes I agree some "businesses " pay only for after school activities, tutors and little extras, some pay for holidays, but my friend who deals in furniture has had her husband join her and now it provides the family income.
Maybe it is just the circle of friends I have. But I have several circles of friends and they are all the same.
I did get the calculator out after our 2nd and 2 in full time nursery with just travel expenses was more than i could possibly earn. I was an only child and swore that if I had a child it would be quickly followed by a 2nd.
Even when they went to school I had to calculate childminders from 7am - 9am and the from 3pm-7pm x 2 with travel etc it was not worth the hourly rate I would be on. Maybe in a different part of the country if you have GP to look after your little ones and a network to support you through the holidays and sickness and a local workplace then it might work but living in the SE without any family, then it becomes near impossible. And as for part time work within school hours, we are talking gold dust.

The issue of WOHP doing everything SAHP do is not black and white imo

My dcs are older now. I get up with them, have breakfast with them, leave at the same time as ds2 to go to work.
I get home at the same time as they do normally because they have after school clubs and activities they choose to do.

I cook the dinner, make the lunches, supervise the homework, sort out the school uniform.
So in my case, compared with a sahm with the same ages dcs, I think we do pretty much the same thing.

When my dcs were pre school age-no. absolutely not. I did not do the same thing.

But I have to question the relevance. Is it somehow better to have the hardest day?

Won't it be lovely if we ever reach the point where raising healthy, well adjusted, successful young people to become healthy well adjusted successful adults, is lauded. Not whether a parent works or not.

Because that really is the crux of the issue.