to think that this article is just another way to sneer at sahms? Motherism?

[usuallyright]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/18/sorry-but-being-a-mother-is-not-the-most-important-job-in-the-world

Whilst I agree with some of it, I don't like the sneery tone. There are many similar articles around at the moment about Mothers who choose to stay at home.
Imagine if someone wrote a similar article about working Mothers.
It's just another excuse to pour scorn on Mothers and their choices, which are often complex decisions, not a knee jerk decision to be a martyr..

Lots of defensiveness going on here. I didn't accuse you personally of choosing SAHM as a default position goldenbear. I said if one has a dull, mundane job, it is far more likely that giving it up to stay at home will be a default position than if one has an interesting and stimulating job. That's all.

As for this constant back and forth about whether a WOHP does exactly the same as a SAHP (why do any of you care, even?!) - well, it's pretty obvious that you're not. On the days that I worked, I didn't change all the nappies, I wasnt the only person playing with my child, I didn't make all their meals. That's pretty obvious. It's also not the point.

We're talking about parenting here which is much bigger than the sum of the various daily practical tasks and experiences, it's about values and influence.

Really the debate should be about good parenting being valued, not WOHM / SAHM .

It's good parenting which should be valued and that can be done (or not) by mothers, fathers, WOHP and SAHP

Yes there is defensiveness- on both sides.

Some of us are getting fed up with the way 5,10 years or so out of your life seems to define you forever in the media,by the gov,on MN.....

It's funny as when you cross back over to being a wp you're ok again and not "hobbled"- by some.

Why does it have to be a "default position"? There is a very good chance it was an active choice.

I honestly never knew I was meant to have a point of view on SAHM vs WOHM until I joined MN.

It's a non-article based on a non-survey.

Ignore.

I don't really get why these articles are so frequently trotted out or so popular. It feels like a bit of a non issue to me, I've very rarely had this sort of conversation in RL, most families generally get on with things without the need to slag off other people's choices or big themselves up don't they?

My dh has spent more time as a stay at home parent than I have but I really don't think that he has been a bigger influence on the children than I have. We are both pretty hands on and engaged, and our children turn to us for different things according to their natures and ours.

My parents had a pretty traditional set up and my mum looked after us while my father worked long hours )and was not very hands on when we were small) and yet I would say that he was my main role model and very important to me. He died recently and I didn't notice him regretting his choices in the way that I apparently will as a woman/mother according to some in these debates.

We did what worked for us and I have no regrets. I would hope the same for other parents too, however they manage their care arrangements.

I think some concern is that in some jobs/careers if you take 5-10 years out (which in my eyes is a very long time to be a SAHP) then it can be extremely difficult if not impossible to get back into your line of work. That's why it can be such a hard decision to make because potentially you are giving up something important forever for the sake of being a SAHP.

And also, sure somebody has already said this, but URGH to the SAHP/WOHP debate always revolving around mothers.

I think this article and attitude is best off back in the 1950s where it belongs.

as ^^ already said, people make choices to suit their own family and who actually cares what other people do for child care? really?

I think the article is a bit wank too - and especially the stellar career men bit. I agree with that previous poster mentioning the relentless nature of it, no holidays (unless you have kind friends/relatives) and no pay being the reason why people aren't champing at the bit for a piece of the action.

Getting the balance right between protection and exploration, restriction and indulgence, strictness and leniency etc., so they turn out and become successful adults with stellar careers (or at least ones that don't sell their talents short), and play a responsible part of tomorrow's society, isn't particularly easy in my opinion. Comparing it to a surgeon is a bit apples and oranges IMO.

Full time mum is a poor phrase though and moreover unkind in its implications. Stay at home mum does the job.

how do you parent if you're not physically there? You may be biologically the parent, but practically you're not. And your child cares more about the practical than the biological during childhood.

Yes, I agree that practical stuff is of huge importance during childhood. Things like having a roof over your head, food on the table, clothes to wear. And that's why parents who work outside the home are full time parents every bit as much as those who are staying at home. Providing for your child's basic physical needs is an essential part of parenting. We are all full time parents.

I think the phrase 'how do you parent if you're not physically there ' just demonstrates a very limited view of what being a parent is.

Ok, at the end of the day it's up to each of us to define what we mean by parenting, but I certainly don't I'm no longer a parent when my children are at school, at a friends, playing in their rooms.....

Don't feel I'm no longer a parent

if your a parent your a parent.

when I was a cm I was still a parent to my own kids but a child care professional running a successful business and taking care if other people's children during the working day.

I certainly wasn't their parent. what an odd attitude.

SAHM is not a job. It is drudgery and it is certainly not hard work or work in any sense of the word. What you do, other people have to do as well ON TOP of working all day. When I see children who really are well rounded and ready to be good members of society, I might respect you more.

Lol! That's pretty arrogant. Not everyone's respect is worth having ;)

Just get on with doing your best everyone :)

Writer Are you in the UK. My understanding us that your employer is not meant to ask your intentions post mat leave - certainly not to the extent of filling out a massive form.

Exactly thebody

I would have thought it very odd if my children's cm had thought her role was to be their parent

To me the word 'mother' is just short hand for the primary attachment a child needs to forge in its early years. It doesn't need to be birth mother, a birth father, or a biological person, just whoever it is that is fulfilling that role for the child. 'Mother' is a historical reference to this attachment IMO. It doesn't require you to provide the child care full time either, but it is your responsibility in this role to ensure adequate child care is always in place for your child when you are not present, and at the end of the day the child is always your main responsibility whether you are physically present or not.
It may well not be the most important job in the world, but it is to the child. And that's good enough for me to make it the most important responsibility in MY world too.
I see far more people having a pop at SAHM's then WOHM's. I'm in the second category so I'm not sure why it bothers me so much.

Of course CMs/ nurseries/ other childcare aren't parenting in place of WOHPs. But they are doing the childcare and that is the job of the people who work there. Hilarious that some people on this thread think that SAHP aren't doing a job. They are doing their own childcare! Unless you think all nannies/ CMs/ nursery workers don't have a real job?!

merry mouse

best post.
couldn't agree more!

I've just sat down and had a really thorough read of the document as admittedly I had skimmed it before as the Maternity leave Procedure is 33 pages long!!!

It actually says I must complete the 'Application for Maternity Pay" form by the time I'm 25 weeks pregnant and then a month before I plan to start my Maternity Leave (so when I will 33 weeks pregnant) there is another form where I must express my intentions about returning to work after the birth.

It does say though that there is an option to write 'unsure' and defer making the decision until after the baby is born. Why can't that just be the standard option then?? Why ask for intentions?? Mind you, I suppose it does help the employer if they have some idea as to what will be going on.
It then goes on to explain what forms/actions need to be taken if either your plan then differs from your original intentions.

It's all a bit overwhelming. I really need to sit down with my Boss and talk the Policy through with her as I'm the sort of person who grasps things better when they are verbally explained/talked through as opposed to just reading written information.

Exactly thebody

I would have thought it very odd if my children's cm had thought her role was to be their parent

notanymore - I disagree that SAHM are the ones getting 'popped at' and actually think it is the other way round. I feel that on this thread it is the WOHP who are getting the raw deal by being made to feel they are lesser parents because they are choosing to work and not being 'real' parents to their children

Ps) to those who asked, yes I am in the UK.

I am a SAHM, a full time mum what ever title you wish to give me. But what most working mums are failing to see is that a lot of us SAHM's have little businesses on the side that we run as well as looking after our dc full time. In my circle of SAHM's there is a furniture dealer, one who deals in shoes for transvestites and transexuals, a couple of us running buy to let, and some who deal in clothes on EBay. Even though we have books we pay tax etc we are still all looked on by the working mum brigade as SAHM's. We don't just take the kids to school, cook, clean and shop. I have to say I do not know any SAHM who does not do other stuff. Just because we do not have a salaried job with set hours and someone telling us what times we have to work, go on holiday etc. does not mean we are socially and financially hobbled.
The only people we know who you could describe as socially and financially hobbled are the people who couldn't wait to get back to work. Most are in huge debt as the reality is that the women we know who went back to their fancy job titled big salaried jobs do not earn enough to cover the childcare costs, cleaner, gardener, car and treats they give themselves and their children because they have worked all week. I think a lot of parents are not looking at the reality of working and how much it actually costs.

Merrymouse - spot on.
Why is it always about the mothers?

My children have two parents, who both love them beyond measure, and our children love us both too. We are both of equal importance as parents, and both responsible for guiding them, instilling values... And id say we're also equally competent at the practical tasks of nappy changing, preparing meals, doing laundry ... We may not both do the practical things in exact equal measure all the time, but the really important stuff- guiding our children towards happy, healthy adulthood- absolutely, we're both as important as eachother.