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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be pissed off DP went to a strip club....

689 replies

NancyShrew · 25/10/2013 11:13

When I made it perfectly clear I'd be annoyed about it.

DP doesn't seem to find it an issue and I'm fuming. He wanted to go to a strip club to "see what it's like", I said I wasn't happy and we'd discuss it at a later date.

He went anyway on a works night out last night, but apparently it's fine because it wasn't an enjoyable experience.

OP posts:
Lazysuzanne · 28/10/2013 17:29

Caitlin
'I think the sex industry is degrading and making a living by selling sex is wrong. Full stop.'

I take it you mean that exchanging sex for money is always and necessarily wrong?
Would you explain the grounds for your argument

festered · 28/10/2013 18:09

Apologies I haven't been able to get back to this thread seems I have missed a lot!

NancyShrew But by the same token (and this is not the way that I feel personally), how would you feel about women who judge "clean" strippers because they feel that their decision to display their bodies and arouse men in a commercial context for personal enrichment, makes men's attitudes towards other women less respectful, and encourages other women to do things they are not comfortable with?

It isn't really a question of how I would feel, It's a question of how I do feel really :)
It's a quandary that underpins my life a lot of the time, people know what I do-I am not one of those people who hides it, uses a different name, is dishonest about my work etc. IT's not something that bothers me per se, but It's definitely there.
It would probably take an essay to explore it!

Strip clubs existing is an example of blatant patriarchy , in some people's eyes. It is a place where women's looks matter (supposedly) over anything else about them.(For the record, in my vast experience, the prettier girls aren't always the higher earners)!

I cannot see them as being the essence of all the above issues though. A part of it (a rather small part). I tend to think that women who are very promiscuous play more of a part. But as has been said before, why are we not blaming the men for their lack of respect for us as a gender? (I don't necessarily agree either way).
I believe in choices being the more important thing with sexual equality . Women and men are not the same , we're different. Why can we not be different but not have one gender that's supposedly superior? Why can women not work in a strip club if they want-or be a train driver if they want, yet still deserve respect.
It isn't the same issue exactly but I did my BA thesis on pornography and its role in sex crimes. Much of the evidence I gathered would support the theory that sex crimes are more apparent where pornography is not available.I won't 'cite' myself though, it was a long time ago was that!

I am a very small source of information (I'm 5'3 :D ) but a lot of guys I have danced for have been craving female attention but unable to get it elsewhere . They choose strippers, they're attentive and give them an ego boost. Sexual arousal is part of it, but it's only a part. Most men enjoy themselves but separate fantasy from reality.

Sugar

Festered...you don't see that you either do extras or you don't? You don't see allowing a customer to fondle your breasts as an extra? It's quite distinct in my mind. If you clean dance, they pay to receive the entertainment you give them. If you start allowing touching, you've been paid to allow a man to touch you up?? Don't you think?

I think touching breasts is an extra, definitely. We're not meant to do that. But I think It's far less of a deal than letting a guy touch your vagina for the purposes of trying to arouse you, Or letting a guy get his penis out, and playing with it. I think that's a whole new kettle 'o fish!

The reasons I think this is, if say, I allow a guy to touch my breasts, and he's just been playing with his knob in the toilets, or has drugs on his hands, or even if his hands are dirty. No biggie. I could babywipe afterwards, no harm done.

If he has dirty hands and I let him insert his fingers into my body, or if he's just been getting himself off in the lavvy and then does it-whole lot of things could occur there. STD. Health consequences. Infection- Plus for me personally, sexual acts are sacred. Plus I could get hurt. Okay, unlikely. But FAR from impossible!

Giving a guy a blow job or fondling his cock, similar reasons plus, I don't want to give guys physical pleasure for my job, I just don't feel I am paid enough for that!

Strumpeton good point!

festered · 28/10/2013 18:11

Caitlin I think you're confusing Sugar with me, on your last statement (prudish in relaitonships) unless I have missed a post of hers.

Caitlin17 · 28/10/2013 18:14

Yes I do. I have no religious beliefs, but I think sellingng sex degrades the seller and the buyer.

Ideally sex should be an expression of love but it can be just bloody good fun without there being any meaningful relationship; casual sex for fun isn't inherently wrong.

But selling it cheapens and debases something which should be freely given at best in love,or if not with mutual respect.

I've been struck many times by articles and research about sex workers and their punters just how much each seem to loathe and despise the other.

Caitlin17 · 28/10/2013 18:15

Festered, no somewhere in all of this I'm sure Sugar said something about it being months before she would have sex with her boyfriend.

festered · 28/10/2013 18:25

Ah okay sorry.
I'm definitely like that too lol.

I don't know, I don't judge women who have casual sex, but I find it very hard to understand them...Just so far removed from 'fun' for me how I think of it.

Lazysuzanne · 28/10/2013 18:31

Caitlin it sounds as if those are your personal feelings about sex and what it means to you?

If I decided to work as an independent escort because I enjoy sex and like to have alot of sex with a variety of different men would you think that I was doing something wrong for me?

Lazysuzanne · 28/10/2013 18:39

Festered
' a lot of guys I have danced for have been craving female attention but unable to get it elsewhere . They choose strippers, they're attentive and give them an ego boost. Sexual arousal is part of it, but it's only a part. Most men enjoy themselves but separate fantasy from reality.'

That is interesting, but someone more cynical might say they are craving women to act in a subservient way, ie dance for them?

I am a bit stuck on a point made earlier by Basil:

'With regards to nakedness, our culture accepts that naked=powerless. Getting naked implies vulnerability, opening up to being hurt or abused or pleasure. That is why in countries where human rights abuses are rife, one of the first things that happens when you enter prison / concentration camp etc., is that you are stripped. The guards who strip you remain fully clothed, emphasising the gulf of power between the captives and their gaolers.

That's not to say that naked=powerless inevitably in all circumstances, but to ignore the powerful cultural resonances of it is to miss something, I think.'

I guess the reason I'm stuck is because I cant imagine feeling anything but vulnerable and powerless if I was naked where other people were clothed.
Obviously not all women will feel like that and you've said you are fine about naked.

However I cant get past feeling that the men must feel in an especially dominant position in a situation where they are clothed and paying the women to be naked.

I some ways stripping makes me feel more uncomfortable than prostitution because with prostitution both people are naked/exposed.

Does that make any sense? Confused

festered · 28/10/2013 18:57

Haha yes it makes sense. You might be totally right and me wrong, or perhaps we're both right some of the time. I don't think we'd ever know.
I don't feel subservient when I dance. I don't feel much really, to be honest. It's all an act, I pretend I am totally into it and turned on and ecstatic to be doing it and in his company, but It's a fantasy.

Probably the main difference between you and I is I really don't mind being naked at all. I mean,I wouldn't walk down the street naked or be naked when my Mother visited, I don't like being naked, but I'm not bothered by it.
However if the man was naked as well, I wouldn't like that. I don't want to be skin to skin contact with a stranger. That would freak me out.

I do feel safe as well. I know that at any point if the guy does something I feel uncomfortable with , I can stop the dance and have him leave. And I still get to keep my money. There are people in the clubs that protect the dancers, It's in their interests to.

And I always keep my shoes on :)

Caitlin17 · 28/10/2013 19:00

Lazysuzanne, I feel there will never be any hope of equality and an end to sexism and misogyny when women are colluding in maintaining them by thinking it's ok to be bought and sold for sex.

It's nothing to do with my own attitude to sex. I see it as political. To be blunt the Sugars of this world are making it more difficult.

Lazysuzanne · 28/10/2013 19:10

It's not that I think I might be right Festered, it's a very tricky subject and I'm not sure what the objective truth is...if indeed there is such a thing!Confused

Caitlin, why must we make a special case for sex, it's ok for a man to pay me for any number of other things, to do his housework, care for his children, fix his car, provide physiotherapy, why is it not ok to be paid for sex?
If a man wants no strings sex and I like no strings sex why is it not OK for him to pay me if I am happy to do it and not being coerced in any way?

What about male prostitutes who have sex for money with gay men..is that also wrong?

festered · 28/10/2013 19:16

I tend toward thinking there isn't a 'truth' really. Plus if I think back to my last shift (this Saturday just gone) the mixture of men I danced for , their reasons for being there, their attitudes toward me and mine toward them-it's usually a whole mixed bag. I couldn't analyse someone's personality based on the fact he attended or attends. Some men are fascinated and enthralled by me, some are young lads who think It's all a bit of a laugh. Some are convinced that if they buy a dance you'll go on a date with them.. Some have fallen out with their wife and want to do something they're 'not allowed' to do... Some come in WITH their wife!Some complain that I'm not allowed to go further, some don't want me to get undressed at all...

hamdangle · 28/10/2013 20:11

I think it's pretty irrelevant whether Some women claim that they enjoy their work and that every woman they know loves being part of the sex industry and feels that they are in control. The fact is your participation in this, whether as female dancer or male consumer, is part of a bigger problem where women are objectified and judged solely on their looks/attractiveness/readiness for sex. I think as parents you should look beyond what might seem an easy way to make a quick buck and think about the wider impact.

If you have a son, would you be happy for them to visit a strip club? To view women as objects that can be bought at a price? To categorise them into clean girls and dirty whores?

If you have a daughter, would you be happy with her working in a strip club? Doing a topless robot dance for some bloke's shits and giggles? What if she's 'ugly' or can't dance that well and she feels pressured into offering extras just to feel validated?

The truth is when I grew up the sex industry was something that was underground. Porn mags were top shelf and bought by hairy handed truckers. Sometimes you would find one in the hedge and we'd pass it round on the school yard. The women looked normal, like your auntie or your older sister, no boob jobs and most had pubic hair. Porn vids were something people got out when you had a party at someone's house because someone's dad was a bit of a perv and had a secret stash. Sex clubs were invisible.

Now kids are growing up with a constant supply of porn, most of which is hardcore, violent and degrading to women. Most consist of women being aggressively penetrated in every orifice which they pretend to enjoy it. They all have boob jobs and no pubic hair. None look like my auntie Linda. My local city is vair posh and middle class. We have a strip club. One evening I was sitting outside a bar early on. It was broad daylight. The women from the club started walking up and down the street in their underwear giving out flyers!!! Strip clubs are acceptable places to go on a work's do. Women have to suck it up or they are ugly prudes.

How can all this not have an effect on kids growing up today? How can it not cause boys to define women using some of the misogynistic terms that have been used on here? How can it not be damaging to the way young girls' define themselves?

I teach teenagers and I say to the girls never put yourself in a position whereby your self worth is defined by your looks because by society's definition you will only become less and less valuable the older you get. Work hard, get a good job and buy your own fucking handbag!

Lazysuzanne · 28/10/2013 20:47

I guess we need to make sure that girls wise up and dont put up with misogyny.

I disagree that most porn is violent, I've seen plenty of porn which is not a all violent or aggressive or degrading..unless of course you think that all erotica is inherently degrading.

Of course it is a performance designed to sexually arouse, in the same way that a film with a car chase is designed to get your adrenalin going, but you wouldn't leave the cinema and drive home at 150mph (least I hope you wouldn't)

Often the cultures in which women are most oppressed are the ones which are also very sexually repressive.

I dont know what the answer is, no I dont like to think of my son in a strip club but then I dont really want to know anything about his private life, any more than I want to share mine with him!

Caitlin17 · 28/10/2013 21:21

Lazysuzanne, paying some one to be a cleaner, a nanny, a mechanic or whatever is not the same as paying for sex. That's an argument which gets used but really does anyone who's not working in the sex industry believe it?

BasilFucker · 28/10/2013 21:22

I guess we need to raise our boys not to be misogynists.

Lazysuzanne · 28/10/2013 21:24

That doesn't explain why we should make a special case for sex

Strumpetron · 28/10/2013 21:26

I dont work in the sex industry but I fully believe if a woman wants to use her body in that way, well it's her decision.

But that may be because I don't see sex as a sacred thing between the wedded or whatever, it's just another human act.

Lazysuzanne · 28/10/2013 21:36

Lots of people use their bodies to earn money, dancers, manual workers, singers, restaurant critics.

No one accuses them of selling their bodies.

Caitlin17 · 28/10/2013 21:39

I don't actually think sex is sacred to the marriage bed, that is not what I said.

As for it just being another job, really? No one would bat an eye lid at meeting someone who does any of the jobs LazyS mentioned.

Sometimes it really does come down to would you be happy your daughter/son was doing this.

Caitlin17 · 28/10/2013 21:42

LazyS, sorry but you're really struggling trying to make out all manual work is just the same as prostitution.

Lazysuzanne · 28/10/2013 21:46

Circular argument Caitlin, and of course it doesn't just boil down to the would I be happy for my daughter etc.

Since you asked if it's what she wanted and she was happy and not harmed then fine.
She's free to live her life as she chooses.

Strumpetron · 28/10/2013 21:47

I don't actually think sex is sacred to the marriage bed, that is not what I said

I didn't say you did, I was just saying.

I know prostitutes, porn stars and women who have worked on sex lines. I literally don't bat an eyelid. I would if they expressed they were in some sort of trouble or unhappy of course.

SplitHeadGirl · 28/10/2013 21:48

But Lazy, all those people you mentioned are DOING something positive, that has a positive impact on families or society. A man paying a woman for sex or to dance for him isn't positive at all...it is all about HIM and his gratification and his entitlement to women's bodies. If he has that attitude in a club, are we really to believe he changes when he leaves and treats women as equals?

I cannot see that there is anything good for women or for society or for families, whatever, in men paying for women.

Lazysuzanne · 28/10/2013 21:49

Caitlin let me break this down so that you can understand it.

All your arguments rest on the premise that we should make a special case for sex, I am questioning that premise.