Men looking at my 13year old daughter

[marmitenot]

I went out with my 13 yr old dd yesterday and a couple of her friends. My daughter, although very pretty (doesn't get it from me!), is clearly a young teen and yet men (old and young) were leering over her and distinctly 'checking her out'.

The looks they were giving my daughter made me extremely uncomfortable and really cross.

AIBU to expect men to control themselves around children?

Mumsyblouse I dont notice what other people are doing. I'm either trying to get a toddler to listen or I have headphones in and enjoying not having the toddler around.

This isn't about parties etc. Its about been out and about which I don't notice. Men or women, I domt give a shit about what people are doing. I could be getting leered/stared at from all directions but I wouldn't notice.

Nothing to do with having my head down or ignoring 50% of the population. What shite.

No, I have encountered worse than leery/sneery men.

And where the fuck did victim blaming come from?!

In this instance, the OP can see men looking at her daughter- are you implying it is her fault for looking?!

Amd how the fuck did you get to that when I said that I don't notice it. That I don't look.

Dont fucking dare try make out I'm victim blaming!

Some countries are definitely worse than others. In northern France I had much more negative and threatening attention, Italy loads of hassle but not actually threatening, just persistent (even when accompanied by DH!!) Loads of hassle, again not threatening, just annoying, when I was in Israel with my mum aged 14. I imagine there is much less harassment in general in northern Europe.

Parts of the UK differ as well, I always felt pretty safe in central London funnily enough. In fact it felt like I was liberated when I came back from France, I really felt there I had to modify my behaviour and dress. I lived in France 15 years ago though, I hope it has changed since then and I expect there are regional variations, it's a big country.

If you ever doubt how common sexual harassment is follow @everydaysexism on Twitter, it happens to most women quite regularly, unfortunately. And men as well.

I agree Crowler. I notice pretty people of all ages, in fact I just notice people, full stop, I'm quite a visual person.

YANBU. When out with my two teenage DDs it is one man after another leering. Much older men and being so obvious they make DDs uncomfortable. Surely it is rude to stare? And dirty if they are leering. If they are going to leer they should do it to women their own age!

I don't know I look at beautiful people of all ages. Today a young man/boy, probably about 13 was in a shop I was in and he was just divine looking, no not sexy (purlease!) but very beautiful and I looked at him, I'd also probably look at some of these terrifically beautiful 13 year old girls. Are you sure they were letching not just looking? I think a good place to put your energy on this is to talk a lot to your daughter about her boundaries and how to manage filthy old gits.

It is not ok to endanger children outside a school by rear ending the driver in front of you because you can't tear your eyes away from a school uniform uniform Surely the inability to control primal lust at the wheel is dangerous and you shouldn't be allowed a driving licence.

I think we all probably know people who act like this, and probably a good few more apologising family members who pass off this persons foibles off as banter or a generational thing. I don't want my DC thinking its ok,because is isn't. I try to ensure they know better.

Also great to see lots of MN who have DC who are confident enough to sort the wheat from the chaff.

I definitely got leered at when I was about 13 or so. It was sooooo easy to spot the difference between a casual "oh, she's pretty" look and an open leer.

I even got flashed at, I've had my bum slapped more than once, and on one occasion I was cycling along a main road to my uncle's house when a bloke leaned out of the passenger seat of a truck and slapped my bum as they drove by. That really hurt.

I agree with the poster who says the men aren't immediately looking at the face to check a girl's age, they are indeed looking at body parts and objectifying the girl they are looking at.

And I'm now 45, with a 13 year old DD. DD looks her age if you look at her face, but even though her breast aren't that big, she's tall with some curves and the blokes are definitely checking her out.

And I have seen blokes perving at the Year 6 girls from DS's primary school, even when they were in uniform. Some of them are tall, and already developing but still look 11.

If I'm walking along, tired after work, mind wandering and staring into space then my eyes might start tracking an attractive person long before I can even think to stop them. As I'm also shortsighted my eyes will be drawn to gait and movement before it can clarify body shape and body shape before it can clarify a face. And no doubt my eye is drawn - the same way it wanders towards flashy sports cars, well kept front gardens or a sunset. Beauty is something many people to react to.

When I do see pretty girl my reaction depends on their age - children and young teenagers (younger than 18) stimulate nothing more than an aforementioned appealing front garden. I look, I acknowledge, I move on. Older women I might have a reaction of 'wow, attractive!' but again, it's an acknowledgement of a subjective fact - I find that individual visually appealing.

No of this equates to me thinking I have a right to that persons body, regarding that person as less human or more of an object or in anyway less than my equal. This is regardless of age or appearance.

I am not alone in this reaction /perspective. Most of the men I have spoken to feel the same. I would honestly beg most of the women here who are so ready to read vileness and malice behind the eyes of the men they encounter - is this what you think of the men in your life? Your brothers, fathers and sons? If you think they are 'good' men who somehow escape the curse of the patriarchy, please realise that to someone else they are the random men who's simple glance somehow transmits such evil.

Neo

I think you said it perfectly, it certainly not all men. I would be horrified if someone thought my DH or DS was making them uncomfortable.

It's not the looking it's the leering part of the OPs post which makes the look action intimidating and that behaviour needs challenging. Leering isn't a casual glance.

Neofaust - it's not so much reading vileness and malice in men it's hearing it and experiencing it quite frequently.

From a minority of men, yes, but unfortunately a significant enough minority to make sexual harassment - anything from catcalling to flashing, touching, assault and rape a surprisingly common occurrence for women.

DH was very surprised to hear about how much harassment I had regularly encountered - he certainly believed it when we walked through Rome to choruses of catcalls, or when he witnessed an old man stroke my leg on the Paris Metro. Most men wouldn't dream of harrassing or assaulting women so find it hard to believe this happens so regularly.

I can also tell the difference between an appreciative glance and a threatening leer. Like when I was in the gym at uni, there was one guy who would take every opportunity to stare directly at my crotch, for ages, not just a glance! He was trying to deliberately intimidate me.

Also I think most other women can tell the difference too, whether the attention is directed at them or someone else.

I got looked at all the time at 13 but I didn't give a fuck. If they want to look so what? Let them, coz they're never going to get more than that! I understand that people obviously feel differently but I think it's a bit overboard when it becomes 'ALL THESE PERVES 'LEERING' '

As a mum the OP is obviously going to get pissed off about it. Still think it's weird how you hardly ever get older women staring at 13 year old boys. Not weird in a bad way, just how can we be so different?

I once had a friend who was CONVINCED men were always looking at her. They weren't. She'd always say 'OMG I'm sick of being stared at' and there'd literally be no-one even glancing her way.

Love this thread.

Woman posts about what she knows has happened (because having a vagina doesn't automatically make you an unreliable witness) and is told that she's imagining it, making it up etc.

Or that she's not but that men can't help it.

And that if you think that men are capable of being decent, nice, respectful, evolved human beings, then you are the manhater.

Fab!

I used to give men the finger & shout angrily at them if they leched. they still did it. It wasn't a very clever response on the whole. I think I'd like Dd to be a bit more mature. I like the idea of making a joke of it. Must be more like that.

I come from a much more lecherous country than the UK, so which country is that much less lecherous than the UK again??

What's wrong with getting angry with men like this? Anger is an appropriate response. One of my proudest moments aged 15 was when a guy groped my arse on the Athens underground and I turned round and kicked him in the shins, as hard as I could.

Blokes who actually grabbed me were worth my fury (I have been known to chase them down the street), but not the merely leching or cat-calling guys.

I think my anger too more out of them than it mattered to them. And if it did matter to them it might have invited aggression from some. It just feels in retrospect like a pointless waste of energy.

Ummmm, I lived in Birmingham until two months ago, so 39 years.

And it bloody does go on there. I can say this because I had it happen to me from about 12 onwards, when I started secondary school, funnily enough, when I was walking to and from the bus stop ALONE each day.

Yes, I got whistles, comments (nasty, crude, sexist ones) and one guy who used to wait on his doorstep, then fall into step next to me, put his arm around my shoulders, call me darling and ask for my phone number and how old I was. As I say, I was 12, he was in his late teens/early 20s.

I was a plain girl, not overly developed, and obviously fucking TERRIFIED of what was going on.

So yes, it DOES bloody happen, it isn't right, it's fucking disgusting, upsetting and downright scary for a CHILD to be in that situation.

My own DD is almost 12 now, and much prettier than I was at that age. I am worried about whether she will experience this shit (or more, WHEN she will experience it) and how to help her deal with it if/when she does.

Can't believe the victim-blaming and denial going on on this thread. We are in 2013, aren't we? I haven't time-warped back to 1953?

Strumpetron, if all you got were looks, then fine.

But as I mentioned before, I got slapped on the bum, while I was cycling along, by a bloke in a passing truck which was moving at the time. How I didn't end up under another vehicle I'll never know, and my bum hurt for days. Sadly I didn't get the reg of the vehicle as I was too busy concentrating on staying upright and alive to look.

This is what follows on from looks, and is the result of that same sense of entitlement that some men have about looking, and more, at women.

Other posters have also said they got more than men just looking.

It wouldn't have mattered how stroppy I was, how self-confident, this was an assault by a bloke who thought he was entitled to touch me, when I wasn't actually in a position to defend myself. Yelling a confident "fuck off" at him would have done nothing to stop it.

And this is what I don't want for my daughter.

I've lost count of the number of @EverydaySexism tweets from women who were hit on by men when they were 10–14 years old, often in uniform. I think a strawpoll would reveal it's very common.

Big difference between looking and physically assaulting someone. Saying one leads to another is like saying an argument always leads to murder.

I live near a secondary school and the looks that the uniformed girls get from a large number of men passing in their cas are not wholesome.
I think it's more common for men to find girls from about 13 yrs of age than many would admit.
It doesn't mean that they'd assault them. But they're not the looks of anyone admiring a garden that's for sure.

Thing is, Strumpetron, how the hell am I supposed to know when it's a lecherous bastard who's only going to look, and when it's one who's going to look and grab, or look and grab and at the same time risk pushing me under a passing car? I can't! So any encounter feels threatening, because I know that some encounters escalate, and I have no way of knowing whether this is one of the ones that's going to do so.

And why the hell should my friends' female children have to put up with this sort of shit when they're only 12, 13, 14?

Why do you find it so bloody weird that I (and others on this thread) think they should keep the urges of their pathetic little dicks under wraps and try to behave like civilised human beings?

lurcio a lecharous bastard who's only going to look so all men who dare to look at your are now lecharous bastards? Even the ones who just think 'oh she's nice looking' you immediately label them as not being able to control their 'pathetic little dicks'

I don't find it weird at all, in fact I'm pretty sure I said I understand. But what I don't understand is the idea that looking automatically means they want to abuse you or wanting to shag you. People admire people with their eyes, it happens. What happened to you is a completely different matter, it was disgusting and absolutely no excuse for it.

Sorry, I meant to say ..who find girls from about 13 urs of age sexually attractive....