Men looking at my 13year old daughter

[marmitenot]

I went out with my 13 yr old dd yesterday and a couple of her friends. My daughter, although very pretty (doesn't get it from me!), is clearly a young teen and yet men (old and young) were leering over her and distinctly 'checking her out'.

The looks they were giving my daughter made me extremely uncomfortable and really cross.

AIBU to expect men to control themselves around children?

I always have enormous trouble with threads like this.
May be because I'm a fairly plain looking mousy brunette with glasses or may be because from the day I was born I thought I was just as good as any boy I've never had any of this shit from men that posters go on about.

No one leers, no one cat calls, no one exposes themselves to me ever. If I got the odd wolf whistle when wearing a short skirt (which probably has happened twice in my life) I'd take it as a complement and smile.

I haven't lead that sheltered a life, I went dancing and drinking in a mini skirt from 13 and to uni in a very large city.

I've done lots of BFing in public, including of a toddler, never got any shit for that either. I guess I'm just invisible.

its not just about what we teach our DD to cope with it, more important IMO is what we teach our DS so he does not do it. teach respect and teach that pornography is not real and that Girls are people with feelings etc etc
oh and this in a gosh that's going to break hearts when it's older. I found rather disgusting upthread when someone was describing how men look at her dd. that and it is no way to refer to anyone even in this context.

The replies to this thread have surprised me. I debated with myself about posting in AIBU because of course I am not. It's simply not on for men to leer at women/teens/girls.

My daughter is 13year old. She looks 13 years old. We were on the tube with her and a couple of her friends. She was standing chatting to her friends. I was sitting close by. One man moved seats to get a better look at her legs/bum. Another man got too close to her at which point I got up and stood between them. On the next tube line there were 2 men looking and nudging each other.

I remember the unwanted attention - the flashing/calls in the street/leering started around this age for me also. I am furious for my daughter than nothing has changed.

Moomin that's when it started happening to me too, when I got contacts rather than glasses at 13/14. I remember it so well, and how miserable it made me. I will be Having Words if it happens to DD. She's five months old now so I've got LOTS of time to practice my withering glare.

I always think there's something a bit off about men who go after really young women (not children, as the OP's daughter is, but women in their early 20's.) In fact I think less of Norman Reedus (who plays Daryl Dixon on the Walking Dead), whom I used to love because he is 44 and his girlfriend is 20. I mean come ON.

It happens all over the world, often to a much worse degree than the UK

Yes I was told by a single female friend who visited Egypt - not to go unattached as the level of harassment is extreme - touching very common and persistent - she and a male friend pretended to be together in end in end - she said it was respected being with a male. No idea how widespread her experience was/is.

I already said I've found in very common in London visiting but lived in Northern cities during those years with it hardly happening.

Never in the village I grew up in - but nearby town even when out with parents - yes. Rare in town DH comes from but then often with FIL who looks intimidating but in nearby city - occasionally when younger.

"I don't believe for a minute that tons of blokes are 'checking out' 13 YO girls"

A quick peruse of the everydaysexism sitewill show you that it's a depressingly common occurance.

Is this a London thing? I spend hours and hours wandering round Sheffield as a teen and Birmingham in my 20's, not one bad experience.

Also I'm 45 and I suspect some of this is a nasty kick back by some men against feminism, girl power and no longer getting their dinner cooked while they go down the pub.

it happens much less in my husband's culture (Eastern European), it also happens less in some Nordic countries I've visited.

Interesting point Mumsyblouse.

Does Turkey count as Eastern Europe? I lived for 6 years in Istanbul and witnessed plenty of the behaviour described.

I have visited Copenhagen, and it was a truly delightful city where I felt completely safe with my DDs.

Do things get worse as you travel south? Or would that suggestion just be racist?

"in a gosh that's going to break hearts when it's older" that was me and I've no idea if men do look at her like that. It's certainly the thought that crosses my mind looking at DD2 made up like an adult in the photos of her as a Bridesmaid. Also she's my DD and I know she has a tendency to wrap people round her little finger and get her own way.

I've never had any problem in Sheffield - though small DC may have helped there but pre-DC never noticed issue even in pubs.

Student Birmingham/Manchester - in pubs/clubs less everyday life much less an issue.

London - was really really bad IME even just walking down street.

Plus it gets less age you get older - worst for me was teenage years and early 20's when groups in the street would comment/call and it never felt like a 'good' thing or compliment.

Internationally it no doubt gets worse in countries who expect their women to dress modestly and where there is legal and cultural sexism, which is why I feel the veil should be banned. It is a sign of oppression, not religious freedom.

But that's a whole other thread.

The OPs problem is men who have no cultral or religious excuse looking, what she considers leeringly at her DD.

As I say, personally I have never been leered at and I think looking and quite probably nugging your mate and both looking is what men and women do.

Women do it much more rarely because decent looking blokes are few and far between. Also boys reach sexual maturity later so a middle aged woman is unlikely to notice a boy under 18 unless he's quite something.

I think looking and quite probably nugging your mate and both looking is what men and women do.

Yes I agree - but leering is very different there is an obviously intimidating predatory sexual behavior especially if its a group behavior.

One thing I found made it harder to deal with was how you can't bring it up without something either accusing you of boasting or telling you to take it as a compliment.

Yes - being treated only a sexual object for complete strangers while innocently going about my daily life and at a very young age and ,especially if there is more than one, an accompanying uneasy/safety fear - was great .

Mmm, I am unsure about this. How do you know they are 'letching' rather than just looking.

I have never noticed anyone letching over my teen girls who are tall, slim and very lovely .

Sometimes I see a teen girl or boy who is absolutely stunning and I find it hard not to look but I definitely don't do it in a weirdo pervy way

I would be very pissed off if I thought someone was leering at anyone let alone a 13 year old

The OPs problem is men who have no cultural or religious excuse looking, what she considers leeringly at her DD.

Everyone carries with them their culture. There is no such thing as a person with no culture.

A culture may not excuse behaviour, but it may go some way to explaining it.

I don't believe for a minute that tons of blokes are 'checking out' 13 YO girls

Do you really think that the type of people who open leer and ogle others actually consider things like age? Their focus isn't actually on the individual, they are looking at body parts.

Some lecherous assholes believe that's their right, this isn't anything new.

The men who used to beep their horns and shout disgusting things at me out car windows didn't give a shit that I was 13/14.

Openly

When I was 13 I would have been thrilled if any male noticed me, and my Mother would not have noticed any such attention, she didn't have that 'radar'. I didn't have 'it' then and never have. I was invisible to males in terms of sexual attraction from then until my mid 20s, when I developed enough confidence to engage males on other terms.

I fully understand OP's discomfort, however, and would feel the same if it were my child. I think men should know better; some do, some don't. But any man who has a daughter and behaves this way isn't much of a father, let alone much of a man in my view.

OP, I started this post to say YABU, but when I started writing it I realised that actually my experience suggests the exactly opposite.

I remember my parents remarking on letchy behaviour from men regularly from when I was 12 onwards although I very rarely noticed it.

The times I did notice included: motorcyclist banging on my window when we were stopped at traffic lights; guy scribbling his phone number on a big sheet of paper and holding it up in rear windscreen in queue for drive-through; the ubiquitous building site catcalls (while I was in school uniform); two guys with a GSD crossing the road in order to block my path (again while I was in school uniform); very old guy on the (school-run) bus insisting on sitting next to me and talking to me about how I supposedly looked like Kate Bush; middle aged guy following me to the bus stop (again while I was in school uniform); drunk guy attempting to grind on me at a gig, while I repeatedly moved away and his fiancee apologised to my parents for his behaviour; middle aged guy successfully orchestrating a sexual assault in a clothes shop. Those things all happened between 2000 and 2004, in a "nowhere special" sort of town, despite the fact that I lived a pretty sheltered life.

I live in a new city now, am in my early 20s and things aren't that much better, although I agree with other posters that the really threatening behaviour stopped when I was obviously "of age". I had to move out of my last home because my neighbour was a creep, and I felt really nervous whenever I had to pass his place on my own. I stopped answering the door to postmen several months before we left that place, because our regular postman was replaced with lots of different ones, and we sometimes got one who stroked my arm and told me I was beautiful (in a threatening way rather than a clumsy-attempt-to-be-nice way). I stopped wearing dresses last summer because I got catcalls from passing cars literally every time I did (and I invariably get them whatever I'm wearing if DH is with me when we go to town). DH noticed a guy leering (the only time I've ever heard him use that word) at me at a fricking National Trust property last weekend, while I was wearing a loose t-shirt, straight jeans, clumpy boots, and a waxed jacket.

I find it disturbing that I've consciously made so many little concessions to this unacceptable behaviour over the years and yet my instinctive response to your post was "overprotective, much?"

YASONBU op. I'm sorry that your daughter is experiencing this and can't believe how many people have belittled it. I think the posters thinking about how to arm young girls with methods to deal with this are brilliant. I experienced this horrible, unwanted attention as a very shy teen and didn't know how to deal with it. It was intimidating and scary. I think having a bank of phrases or advice on how to react to these situations would have been really helpful to me.

Yanbu.

I think there is a difference between an adult man or woman looking at a young boy/girl and thinking "handsome/pretty" and actually leering.

Though I once did see a little boy of around 6 who was so jaw droppingly good looking I did accidentally stare a bit. I wasn't "objectifying" him in a sexual way at all.

But as I said, there is a difference between leering and looking. Most people just know when it's the former. And it isn't pleasant.

I am frankly appalled that so many people think the objectification of girls and women is ok.

I don't think anyone has suggested that objectification of girls and women is ok!

I think they have complex. There have been comments saying that it is natural for men to look at attractive teenagers.

Actually, what I think a fair few people have said is "it's normal for people to hold their gaze at a very pretty person for longer than they would an average looking one.

Has anyone actually said that it's fine for a grown man to leer at a 13 year old girl? I think it's deeply problematic to find a 13 year old attractive. I don't think it's problematic to think a 13 year old girl is beautiful and study her face for a split second. I do this all the time.