Men looking at my 13year old daughter

[marmitenot]

I went out with my 13 yr old dd yesterday and a couple of her friends. My daughter, although very pretty (doesn't get it from me!), is clearly a young teen and yet men (old and young) were leering over her and distinctly 'checking her out'.

The looks they were giving my daughter made me extremely uncomfortable and really cross.

AIBU to expect men to control themselves around children?

it's rude to stare. Whether it's a perversion to look is debatable since 13/14 is the age of consent in some countries.

Until quite recently the age of consent in the Vatican was 12 and they should know about morals.

What has age of consent got to do with it

Girls of this age are vulnerable, many are very self conscious they do not need others to look at them and judge them of their sexual attractiveness

I live around the corner from a boys school, I just see a group of boys I do not check them out to see who is and who is not good looking

I've been "looked at" nicely. That sort of "looking" involves a big, warm smile and a "Hel-LO!" - it's non-threatening, it's appreciative, it makes you feel like a million bucks. And it doesn't demand any thing of you - it just wants you to know you're admired.

SSB, I'm going to have to disagree there.

It may make you feel a million bucks but it made me feel uncomfortable.

And it does demand something - by definition, there is an insistence that you hear that you've been appraised and found acceptable.

I wasn't insecure, I didn't need validation. People can keep their admiring in their heads and let others go about their business.

Truly disgusting that some mners can't see a problem here.

Most of us can.

Perving over very young teens?

Assholes. Sad assholes, actually.

Some of the comments on here early on.. I had to leave the thread or I would have gotten myself banned.

is this what you think of the men in your life? Your brothers, fathers and sons? If you think they are 'good' men who somehow escape the curse of the patriarchy, please realise that to someone else they are the random men who's simple glance somehow transmits such evil.

It;s lovely you are not an asshole, however telling women what is actually happening to them is super fucking shittty of you. Maybe as a man, you actually don't experience it.. so don't know what you are talking about? Is that a tiny possibility?

I am not a racist, if a black person tells me that they are regularly subjected to racism I would be a massive fuckwit to say

is this what you think of the white people in your life? Your friends your colleagues? If you think they are 'good' white people who somehow escape the curse of the patriarchy, please realise that to someone else they are the random men who's simple glance somehow transmits such evil.

I also remember a commemt by Clarkson on Top Gear when they were dissing caravans.
He suggested caravans could be of some use on the road if parents displayed their teenage daughter (words accompanied by visual of a "teen" in her underwear posing on the back shelf of the caravan) for ppl behind to look at.
Not sure how old she was meant to be but, well, nice message dickhead

In other counties (specifically Mediterranean ones ime) you'll notice that everyone looks. I got used to being looked up and down by women appraising my lack offashion sense and figure. You just learn to do the same thing back and smirk or develop an aggressive stare/glare for these occasions.

Mind you, I had to tell a friend of mine, who was moving to Croydon UK, to knock it off or else she'd be stabbed one of these days.

Yes, there's a lot more looking/ appraising in some other countries ime too.

I think most men appreciate a good body. A lot of young girls do have good bodies. Most men I know admit to thinking wow, then realise they are looking at "jailbait" and instantly stop. The age is not the first thing they think of.

Any man who letches rather than looks and stops, when the age registers, is a .
I am horrified it appears to be far more extensive than I thought. I do think that there is an element that you notice it happening once, then you are on high alert, so you notice all the time, some - note, some - of which may be innocent.

"I've been "looked at" nicely. That sort of "looking" involves a big, warm smile and a "Hel-LO!" - it's non-threatening, it's appreciative, it makes you feel like a million bucks. And it doesn't demand any thing of you - it just wants you to know you're admired"

Sometimes it's as if feminism never happened, isn't it?

All those saying it's "natural" for men to look at pretty girls and we shouldn't be offended by it... it's also "natural" for us to want to stare at ugly or disabled people or anyone else in some way different - unusual things attract our eye and attention; that is indeed how our brain are wired.

However, social etiquette has evolved so that it's rude to stare. The person stared at is quite right to take offense. Except, it seems, when it comes to women. Somehow, it's still okay to stare at pretty girls because it's a "compliment".

No it's not.

Attention men: If you can resist staring at anyone else because you accept it's rude, you can damn well stop staring at women too. To continue to do so is nothing but perceived entitlement on your part.

This is a difficult subject because, even without the worries about some men's feelings about actual children, the fact remains that females are judged by the way we look. And many (most, probably) men are looking and thinking "is that one ripe and ready yet"?
So that leaves us in a position were we're either fanciable and desirable and worth something or not desirable and therefore, not worth much.
It is nice to be found attractive (IMHO), but it does leave you vulnerable because it's important IYSWIM.
If you accept that at [whatever youthful age] you are attractive to men and they will look at you and desire you, then the flip side is that above that age/ weight/ whatever, you can be dismissed, because the only thing that mattered is what you look like and how desirable you are.
So you can be vulnerable because you are desirable (to letcherous come-ons etc) and also vulnerable (to being ignored and unworthy) because you're either no longer desirable or never were)
This doesn't happen to men in the same way of course.

Yes Annie who probably put it better than I did.

Annie please walk up and down my high street with a megaphone shouting that until they get it. [applause]

The fact is, as you say, they can perfectly well control themselves if they want to. If it's socially inappropriate. If it would harm them in some way (boss's daughter, let's say). But young girls are "fair game" and defenceless in this. Ugh.

See, I don't find staring as rude as some ppl do. I think it's because I've spent a lot of time in countries where it's not considered rude.
But here, it does reveal some interesting thoughts.

I've been "looked at" nicely. That sort of "looking" involves a big, warm smile and a "Hel-LO!" - it's non-threatening, it's appreciative, it makes you feel like a million bucks. And it doesn't demand any thing of you - it just wants you to know you're admired

Cringeworthy, but perhaps explained due to rarity factor? I mean if it happened once every 5 years, you might feel flattered, but if it happened five times a day, you'd probably feel irked. Personally, I can't stand leering, staring, creepy men.

"Attention men: If you can resist staring at anyone else because you accept it's rude, you can damn well stop staring at women too. To continue to do so is nothing but perceived entitlement on your part."

This. In spades.

i have to say,i dont think "normal" men leer,or look appreciatively,or perv or whatever you want to call it,at teenage girls.I can imagine a certain kind of type of man doing it though,and its not the type i would want to associate myself with.

I understand about the nature side of it,but i dont think thats a good excuse,maybe the ones that do it just arent as evolved as others?I cant imagine my dh leering over anyone!but hes not really an in touch with nature me hunter you gatherer type either.

I remember going to turkey when i was 13,i got very brown and my hair was quite blonde at the time,i was also quite well developed at that point and the attention i got was overwhelming,unfortunately my mum didnt see it as a bad thing and seemed kind of proud,and my dad used to joke about selling me for a wife "you want wife?she good cook?" but i think some of them didnt realise he was joking.

Oh dear ringaringarosy, that sounds horrible.

I think that there is always going to be confusion and disagreement on threads like this because to some degree there are cross purposes.

You get a whole bunch of posters going "life is like that, deal with it"
and a whole bunch of other posters going "but we don't want life to be like that. That aspect of life sucks. We want things to change. We want that behaviour to be unacceptable."

The latter posters (the feminists) sometimes get so swept away in optimism, and the decency of their friends and family whom they surround themselves with, that they can sound as if they are saying "it is not normal for men to behave like entitled rapey pricks when they think they can get away with it". Actually they are probably saying "it is not acceptable for men to behave like entitled rapey pricks just because they think they can get away with it". The only arguments
really are a. does this happen? (you can admit that it does happen even in a context while lots of people think that it is disgusting, the norm is not always ok) b. is this behaviour disgusting and rapey (it can be while still being very common) and c.are we alright with this status quo (it can be not ok even if all the men you know and in your family do it)

youretoastmildred I agree with some of what you say. But, as a feminist, I disagree that I am ever swept away with optimism. Tbh. I think that plenty of men would "check out" a 13 yr old girl before considering the inappropriateness of their thoughts. I do think it's a shame though.
And I think it's something we should be aware of. I also believe it's culturally sanctioned by the media's objectification of young females.
It's a problem. For females.
But my DH thinks I am alarmist and see the worst in ppl. So who knows?

theghostifamandackak has it exactly "It is nice to be found attractive (IMHO), but it does leave you vulnerable because it's important IYSWIM. "

The only point I'd disagree with is that this does also apply to males, just for a shorter time window, most 12 and 30 yearolds makes don't care much what they look like.

However, what does matter is that this looking for approval does not make them feel physically vulnerable. A teenaged boy might be deeply hurt by a gang if girls calling him names, but not afraid.

It's viewing the world through the lens of feminism that (amongst other things) fills me with fucking despair, tbh.