To not understand why teachers should object to performance related pay?

[Dolcelatte]

After all, it happens in most other sectors, so why should teachers be any different. I am not trying to be controversial and there will undoubtedly be others with a better understanding of the issues. However, I don't understand the objections in principle. Why shouldn't remuneration be dependent upon performance?

Noble has a child that has problems she doesn't know how to handle.

Why has she not sought help?

lougle Yup, swanmore is pretty darned leafy! But the intake is average.
Boney Bliss save your energy for posters without cotton wool in their ears.

But there have been a lot of recommendations on here that are not in context. Many local authorities take a different approach to the specifics in statements.

High needs block will be interesting. A lot of these issues could have been addressed by ring fencing 'SEN' budgets in schools and auditing It as a duty.

Lougle I understand that teachers can't be mavericks. But this is an anonymous internet forum. It saddens me that some of them can be so defensive of their non-maverick position here. It is almost like the believe in it, which is bad news for so many children.

I don't know that it is true, Star. I see the system. I remember what it was like as a nurse, bound by the constraints of my role. You can't go direct to the LA as a teacher; you'd be disciplined heavily. Then what good are you to the other children?

Talkin

I'm off to look for the placard carrying badgers :)

Oops

goalpost carrying badgers

Netty
Ring fenced budgets within schools are never a good idea because they are so inflexible. Some school spend far more than their SEN income on student services and staff have multi hatted roles - not possible if you have an audited ring fenced fund.

FWIW when I worked for the Audit Commission one of my tasks was auditing block grant LEA funding and the hoops and twists needed to make it all tally up wasted huge amounts of time and resources.

One of the few fantastic things that Eric Pickles brought in was to sweep away all ringfencing under the principle of localism and decentralisation.

Remember that Academies are Companies and are not audited by the Auddit Commission any more.

We should maybe think about the statutory assessment in terms of

What's working and what's not working

And in true PCP style consider from the parents and from teachers and schools perspective. That could be a POSITIVE thread.

I agree talk but currently some schools don't spend their SEN funding in the way they maybe should

Netty
Then Ofsted will pick up on it - parents with issues are entitled to contact Ofsted and if they see a pattern they will visit and they are the professionals who see lots and lots of schools.

In my work I am trying to make people move towards the way airline pilots deal with problems
"publicly report everything and everybody learns"
and away from the NHS approach of
"pretend it did not happen"

BUT
while schools are dealing with an Education Secretary who refuses to use evidence and imposes retrospective changes, there will not be a cooperative approach.

True sadly

Talk Parents don't have the first clue about what happens in schools because schools don't tell them things like their child's statemented 1:1 TA is shared with other kids.

How can parents complain when they don't know?

Then maybe a pupil premium approach to accounting for the spend?

I do think there has to be accountability for that spend.

I think results are quite a good indicator of quality of teaching actually. I find it interesting to compare the outcomes of lesson observations with the exam results for different teachers. There is not the correlation you might expect to see, IME.

I think value added against some arbitrarily imposed targets are not the best measure of results though.

Anyway all I am off it is a school night after all.

Netty
Gove does not make Academy and Free schools accountable for the whole of their multi million pound budgets. They get to choose their own auditors so will always pick a tame one.

Fallenmadonna
I have to disagree.
My local school does much worse than the one DCs are at because its top 500 pupils are at other schools. That is not the fault of the teachers. It is the fault of Government policy and the misfortune to be next to a massive council estate.

There is not the correlation you might expect to see, IME. . Maybe so in the recent past. However, with the current government trying artificially reduce the numbers of high grades being awarded so that they can magically improve it in a few years, I am not sure how accurate that would be, currently.

I mean for individual teachers. In my (very recent) experience, some teachers with less favourable lessons obs have achieved better outcomes than some teachers with good/outstanding obs, if you compare their results with national results for their subject (taking into account the starting points of their students).

Using other measures however might give you a different view. That's why the way you measure progress matters so much! I am not a fan of VA.

I'm not sure what you mean Talkinpeace. Their top 500 students are at different schools?

at my school results are only indicative of teaching quality if children miss their targets

if they achieve, or exceed, well, maybe the hada tutor. you can't take credit for it as a success.

there is no success, there is only averted failure. i am being totally serious, this is the school's position

Back to the PRP issue, how about this:

DD2 has some issues. They aren't identified yet. She had a SALT assessment in July. I spoke to her new class teacher last week and that morning, she had been given the report. I was raising the issues for the first time with her, assuming that she would have been given a summary of my concerns by her previous teacher/SENCO.

Now, she knew DD2 'wasn't listening' and was 'getting things wrong'. She was trying to address it (only 4 weeks after meeting her). She had no idea about my concerns.

Forget the overall school performance for a minute. Should that teacher be penalised if DD2 performs less well than predicted?

Of course not. She is doing her best with her limited knowledge of DD2 and her teaching training and experience.

I would have liked her to tell me what was happening, but she didn't have a context and DD2 is 6 years old. She looks like she is being a bit distracted.

Thefallenmadonna
THe school has 100 pupils per year group who live in the catchment attending other schools. They are the children of the parents who can be bothered.
Seven years ago the school had 1700 pupils on its two sites. Now it has just over 400 on a single site.

chibi
but if there was no tutor, you did the good work.

chibi ffs find another school. The one you are in will destroy you.