To not understand why teachers should object to performance related pay?

[Dolcelatte]

After all, it happens in most other sectors, so why should teachers be any different. I am not trying to be controversial and there will undoubtedly be others with a better understanding of the issues. However, I don't understand the objections in principle. Why shouldn't remuneration be dependent upon performance?

How would you suggest they did that, considering they don't do that now and an inspection lasts two days? My next point, notthefirst, what about the inspector who has never taught a lesson? Currently, just over a half have never been a teacher. I was last inspected by a former Ed Psych who said I couldn't get an outstanding as there was no air conditioning so the room was too stuffy (even with all the windows open). I was last trained on new OFSTEd procedures by a former LEA administrator who had been made redundant as all the schools in the borough were now Academies and in her words, "she thought it would be something to do". Please forgive me if I don't want these idiots dictating my pay.

What do you mean 'schools' are consulted? Schools are made up of teachers right? Or do they consult with the caretaker only?

What do you mean 'schools' are consulted? Schools are made up of teachers right? Or do they consult with the caretaker only?

'What does the teacher do when the child with anger management issues looks like they are about to hit another child?'

Either this scenario doesn't occur due to the child's needs now being met through the provision outlined in the statement, or the teacher knows exactly what to do as a result of the training she received as outlined in the statement (or if not note in lieu)

ivykaty
How does the doctor know whether the patient is taking the medicine as instructed, whether it will actually work on them (genetic variatios) and whether other things that the patient ingests stop the drug working?

Ha ha, good one starlight, you really are not going to answer the question! I would admire you gumption, if it wasn't on such a tragic topic.

Bliss I don't disagree that Ofsted are a)idiots and b)unqualified to dictate pay, but that isn't what is being suggested is it?

I've answered the question bliss. Do as I outlined and that child won't be hitting anyone.

notthefirst was

doctors never do know whether the patients is taking the medicine as instructed do they, there is a high % of patients that do not take their medicine as prescribed and even more that don't finish their medicine as told, refuse to help themselves. But why should that bother people it doesn't seem to bother people that teachers should be payed on performance so why not doctors as well. And it is easy to tell if it has worked or not

Surgeons with high success statistics are usually very picky about their patients and won't take on the really ill, the high risk, the higher chances cases.

I've taught children with severe special needs who can make amazing progress over an academic year but in tiny steps and often qualitatively rather than quantitively. Doesn't look good in the statistics, statistics are what matter. Some of those children also had degenerative conditions. When performance related pay was first discussed it was mooted that if I 'did my job properly' I could raise all those children's achievement half a P scale point per year. So theoretically in x years I could reverse and cure severe neurological damage and they'd all get reading and writing. One of the people writing those policies met my class and confided to me afterwards 'I didn't know children like this existed'. I'm willing to bet there's a lot of children's educational needs they also have no idea of. Why financially disincentivise teachers away from the children who most need skilled teaching?

Extreme example, but children aren't assembly line products and business based models are a very poor fit.

Bollocks, starlight. No true Scotsman fallacy.

Meet the child's needs and they won't hit anyone. If they hit someone it's because their needs weren't being met. And not because sometimes things are a bit more complicated than you are allowing for.

Surgeons with high success statistics are usually very picky about their patients and won't take on the really ill, the high risk, the higher chances cases.

sounds like schools that select their students

I have never known a teacher be asked their opinion on implementing SEN provision and I know of no teachers that have. The consultation is done by the SEN/Inclusion (whatever they want to call it) department and ratified by the HT.

"Do as I outlined and that child won't be hitting anyone."
Its a politicians answer in that it is worthless and inaccurate.

Do you thinks the same could be said for psychopaths an serial killers, noblegiraffe? Their needs just weren't being met?!

Rumbleinthrjungle. Spot on about the P scales. Where does that leaves teachers of children with degenerative conditions when you are even trying to monitor swallowing at end stage and prevent aspiration. Where's the data for that.

Teachers can't do all that you've said, Star. They really can't. I know that you're passionate about SEN; you know I am. That doesn't mean that teachers aren't.

You know how difficult it is to get a Statement that means something, even with damned proactive parents who fight their way through tribunals with hired expertise. The reality is that there are not many parents who could support their child like that, or even know that they can or should.

Head Teachers can't elect to 'take a pay cut'. There are regulations surrounding Teachers' pay. Equally, teachers can't be mavericks. They can't go around their SLT and HT to the LA - they would be in breach of their codes of conduct and would face dismissal for Gross Misconduct, no matter how virtuous their motives. No teacher should have to face the ending of their career to do that.

The funding given is tiny. You know that. Take Swanmore College of Technology - a notional SEN budget of £274,729 with 1277 on roll - £215 per pupil . If just 45 (3.5%) pupils required 12 hours support per week (the amount required to be funded by the school before getting high needs block funding), that's the budget gone, completely.

Also, if special schools can't get nurses who will undertake clinical work, how on earth are mainstream schools going to?

But even then, the suggestion that a school, with the best will in the world and a bundle of experts can meet the needs of a child when what they really need are decent parents is a bit much.

Boney, it really doesn't matter whether you are asked. Are you really that passive?

Once you get the final version of the statement the parents have 2 months to appeal it if they want to.

You have choices. You have power to do right by the child.

Presumably you know that a child is undergoing a statutory assessment so why don't you ask to see the proposed statement? Don't you consider it your duty to review it as their class teacher or teacher of a key subject and make sure provision your professional opinion regards as essential is encompassed within it as well as the needs accurately defined?

Regarding the training for teachers identified. If you had a child with ASD and a child with ADHD in a secondary school how would you ensure that all teachers accessed training. Yes they could have twighlight. Then the school prioritises the new curriculum changes and or some accreditation issue needs training. I do agree with your principle starlight but teachers do not get that much training time. There needs to be more in ITT. Now more ITT is being delivered by schools.

Also folks the costs of inclusion by John Macbeth is an interesting read on the dilemmas of inclusion.

Lougle. Spot on!

Presumably you know that a child is undergoing a statutory assessment. You presume incorrectly. I have never been informed that an application has been made. That is in secondary schools if that makes a difference.

Lougle. 3.5% does not seem a high percentage needing extra help.
What would be an average percentage of pupils with SEN needs in a
typical inner city comprehensive.

'Do you thinks the same could be said for psychopaths an serial killers, noblegiraffe?'

I do, actually. I don't believe that children are inherently evil, or that they are born that way. I believe children are product of their experience and as such believe that teachers are absolutely crucial to their development and wellbeing. I do not believe as Gove's advisor put it, that children are defined by their genetics and that teachers can't make a difference.

I think teachers are a very powerful influence over a child's life chances and have a responsibility to advocate for the children least able to advocate for themselves, and to support the parents that are trying hard to battle the system.