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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not understand why teachers should object to performance related pay?

718 replies

Dolcelatte · 18/10/2013 09:08

After all, it happens in most other sectors, so why should teachers be any different. I am not trying to be controversial and there will undoubtedly be others with a better understanding of the issues. However, I don't understand the objections in principle. Why shouldn't remuneration be dependent upon performance?

OP posts:
StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 20:37

performance should affect their pay rather.

4 glasses of wine.

Blissx · 20/10/2013 20:38

No you didn't you sidestepped the issue like a seasoned politician would. What physically, would the displacement strategy include? How would you stop that child from punching another?

noblegiraffe · 20/10/2013 20:38

starlight, have you any experience of a child with anger management issues?

Do you think it can be cured with a pill or something?

notthefirstagainstthewall · 20/10/2013 20:39

It's wouldn't be that difficult to get a pay rise if Ofsted rated you as outstanding would it? Then it wouldn't matter who you teach.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 20:40

'Local Authories break the law every day over SEN provision of all kinds.
What do you propose to enforce the law?
Or do you blame the teachers for not making the LA obey the law?'

I would never blame a teacher for the LA not obeying the law. I would blame a teacher for not trying to make the LA obey the law with regards to meeting the needs of a vulnerable child.

I would most definitely blame a teacher for undermining a parents attempt and making the LA obey the law.

skylerwhite · 20/10/2013 20:40

Starlight you seem to think that teachers and schools can simply punch in the right formula for students in any given circumstance, and hey presto everything is fine. Your fetishisation of data upthread confirms this. Human beings are more complex than that.

ivykaty44 · 20/10/2013 20:41

BoneyBackJefferson no it means every time a patient dies under the average age of death - they don't get a pay rise, as they let that patient down by not securing them a healthier life style to live to an older age

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 20:41

'starlight, have you any experience of a child with anger management issues?'

Yes. Do you have any experience of working with a child with anger management issues who had their needs well met?

Blissx · 20/10/2013 20:41

notthefirstWhat about the teachers who don't get seen during an inspection? Would they lose out or automatically get a bonus?

Talkinpeace · 20/10/2013 20:43

What do you propose to enforce the law?
Because currently parents spend years fighting through the courts
and the teachers would love them to succeed, but have 29 other kids to teach as well.

Answer the question

noblegiraffe · 20/10/2013 20:43

Ah, starlight so you do have the cure? This kid with his needs well met that never punched anyone ever again...tell us the magic bullet. We're all ears.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 20:45

noble, the secret is that his needs are properly catered for, and his violence reduces. Though it wouldn't be a secret if the teachers kept proper data.

Blissx · 20/10/2013 20:45

I'm beginning to think that "do not feed the troll" might be an apt statement here...

BoneyBackJefferson · 20/10/2013 20:46

StarlightMcKenzie
"if the teacher had recognised that the support a child required is outside of that normally provided by the school then they have done their job.

If the person they have referred the child too is unable to do their job adequately then their pay should affect their performance."

Another neat sidestep.

The teacher does not select the TA, or the person that writes the SEN provision, yet they get a bad PRP for it.

And if the provision is unsuitable for the child with anger management issues what should the teacher do in the immediate situation? (which strangely enough is noble's question)

noblegiraffe · 20/10/2013 20:47

starlight, this kid had an appalling homelife. So how would a school meet his needs in a way that would reduce his understandable anger at an awful situation in a manner that meant he was instantly cured from punching people who pissed him off?

Talkinpeace · 20/10/2013 20:47

Blissx I think you may be right.

Ivykaty what level of coercion would doctors be allowed to use to get their bonuses?

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 20:47

Talk Most cases would never need to be fought in the courts if the teachers and/or SENCOs wrote a document supportive of a parent's fight for provision. The fight would be over before it was began is decisions are based on evidence with professional opinion on the specification of provision ranking highest.

BoneyBackJefferson · 20/10/2013 20:47

Ivykaty

But if a doctor is repeatedly prescribing the wrong medicine how can they be good at there job?

notthefirstagainstthewall · 20/10/2013 20:48

Well make all teachers be looked at by Ofsted then. Ofsted get more hours and the best teachers get more money.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 20:48

'And if the provision is unsuitable for the child with anger management issues what should the teacher do in the immediate situation?'

Schools are consulted before statements are finalised right?

Nettymaniaa · 20/10/2013 20:49

Starlight Mckenzie statesI think that is the official figure. I would expect most teachers that are not up for the job make their own decisions to leave mostly.

Those who don't are often promoted into LA advisory roles, mostly SN in my experience.

I respond
Firstly there is no promotion into LA roles. They have to be applied for and I do not believe the person spec has inadequate teacher as an essential or desirable criteria.

What do you mean by local authority roles. Some LA employ the teachers who manage and run resource provisions in school, as well as advisory teachers and then there is the role of SEN Officer which is what you may mean.

I have worked in local authorities. I have provided Person Centred Planning as part of my role and believe me as I think you know already given the content of what you are saying, parent were very highly appreciative as PCP works.

I am in a school now and am as committed and as skilled as I ever was. If a local authority officer is not rated does this automatically mean they were a not up to it teacher. I am not aware of any data large or small that supports this.

Talkinpeace · 20/10/2013 20:50

notthefirst
Ofsted used to do that - inspections went on for weeks (in a secondary with over 300 staff for example) and cost tens of thousands of pounds to come to the same conclusions as the modern snapshot ones.
And where would the money come from ?
And if the best teachers are getting more money, where will that money come from?

noblegiraffe · 20/10/2013 20:51

notthefirst

Ofsted's methods are not evidence-based.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24079951

BoneyBackJefferson · 20/10/2013 20:52

Schools are consulted, teachers are not. But I'm not talking about the provision, it has been set.

What does the teacher do when the child with anger management issues looks like they are about to hit another child?

ivykaty44 · 20/10/2013 20:53

what level of coercion would doctors be allowed to use to get their bonuses?

the same as teachers

if a doctor keeps prescribing the wrong medicine the patient isn't likely to stay with the doctor and the doctor would be not given bonus for losing a patient.

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