to be concerned about my friend giving birth in the USA?

[YoniGetAnOohWithTyphoo]

My friend 'P' got pregnant by an american citizen (unplanned, on holiday kind of thing...) anyway, cut a long story short: he has said that whilst he isn't interested in her (and much less in coming over to the UK to play happy families), he, and moreover his mother, seem very keen for P to come over and give birth in the US, all expenses paid.

Whilst this seems like a nice gesture on the face of it, i'm a bit worried. Notwithstanding the fact that P seems to honestly think she's gonna fly to the USA alone at about 35 weeks pregnant (don't they have rules about this sort of thing?) with all the suitcases in tow, if a baby is born in the USA i'm worried it will be an 'american citizen' and as such, won't just be allowed to fly back to the UK. Do any mumsnetters know about this?

I'm haven't said much yet because I don't want to hurt her feelings or scare her, I know at the end of the day it's her choice... but I can't help thinking she hasn't thought this through. What do you guys think?

Hi there - I haven't read the whole thread - just skimmed - but your friend is walking into a very very dangerous situation - unless of course she doesn't want to keep her child, which I'm guessing is not the case.

I have had years of dealing with being married to and subsequently divorced from a US citizen and our child is a dual national born in the USA. If it wasn't for the fact that the Ex dumped us in the UK after we'd lived for more than 6 months in a non-Hague convention country and Ex-H subsequently tried to file for custody in a state where we had never lived - ever - I probably would have been screwed.

Even with those things on my side, it cost us THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of pounds to sort out an incompetent judge's lack of knowledge of the UCCJEA (the law which basically unifies the states on child custody and interstate jurisdictional issues and is often applied internationally too since it mirrors the Hague convention in so many ways) and get her to realise she had ZERO jurisdiction.

Now imagine what will happen to your friend when shortly after the birth he files in the relevant local court where the child was born (and he will).

If your friend wants to talk to someone who has been through this feel free to PM me.

^^ What quoteunquote said. Please show your friend quoteunquote's post.

My family is a complicated mix of US/UK citizens/residents so I know both sides.

If the child is born in the UK, it will still be a US citizen at birth - if the father provides his documentation - see here or here or here

Your friend needs to keep her baby! She neither needs nor wants a US anchor baby. But she desperately needs to keep her child. She can't risk losing her baby to a country she's forever banned from entering.

I hope she sees sense. This is the rare Mumsnet thread that haunts us for years. Please come back and update in nine months, Op.

Also, just want to add something because there seems to be a misconception with some on here - it doesn't matter if the child is born in the UK when it comes to future jurisdiction in so far as if your friend has bubs here and then subsequently goes out to the states with bubs and lives there for 6 months, if she then tries to leave and he triggers the courts the UCCJEA will automatically apply - America will have jurisdiction (that actually includes for non-US children without a US parent too believe it or not) International custody law is incredibly complicated, appeals courts are often split on how to deal with a case and it's a complete crap shoot.

If she thinks she will be able to whisk the baby home on a UK passport from the embassy there she will be very much mistaken. The baby would be a US citizen and as such must exit the US on a US passport with proof of permission to fly from the American parent. If she doesn't have those things lined up and leaves the US she would be guilty of child abduction and would probably be extradited back to stand trial. And of course would lose custody.

OP, even if it means losing the friendship with her, you have to stage an intervention. It will prevent many years of misery, heartache and possibly hundreds of thousands of pounds in bills and legal costs. Not just for your friend but also for her family.

I would show this thread to her family so they realise just how serious this is. Lots of us posting, including me, have lived in the US and know what we're talking about. We're not being drama llamas. Your friend is being dangerously naive.

If I were her family I would do everything up to and including taking her passport, reporting her to SS and physically preventing her from flying.

You need to speak to your friend and put aside fears of upsetting her. She will be much more upset to have to leave her baby in the USA. Show her this thread.
Births in USA costs tens of thousands of pounds. This family won't be paying ( if they honour this commitment) for nothing. They have an agenda.
And birth outcomes for mum and child are better in uk than USA. There is no reason for her to go.

I think there comes a point in some friendships where speaking out has to happen, even if you risk the friendship. You have to lay this one on the line, I'm afraid, not pussy-foot around saying 'that doesn't sound like a really good idea'- just say very bluntly 'I know you won't want to hear this, but if you give birth there, there may be a problem with the legal status of your child, to the point you may risk losing them, is that what you want?'

I've only had to have these conversations twice in all my years of friendships, but sometimes it is more important to protect your friend from herself than to be nice to her because she's pregnant. These people clearly don't have her best interests at heart asking her to travel when pregnant, let alone the visa/custody issues.

www.international-divorce.com/international-family-law

Useful link for you.

You need to tell her straight and keep telling her, even if she falls out with you. I'd do pretty much anything to stop her going really, giving birth there will not have a good outcome for her. She would be crazy to even consider it.

Trying to work out what your friend might be thinking...

She wants the baby to bond with the father and his family - letting them be around for the birth and first few weeks of his or her life is a good chance to acheive that, and not pissing them off by refusing their request.

Having dual nationality might be helpful for the child in future and might help if your friend would like the option to emigrate in the future. If she refuses the guy's request and gives birth at home, what if he refuses to have his name on the birth certificate?

Perhaps his family don't have any unpleasant intentions but think the medical care in the US will be best and don't trust that the baby will be as risk-free in the UK...

I don't think these are good reasons by the way, just possible motivations.

Hello, giraffes sent me this way.

Having had a nightmare trying to get DS out of the US (he was born there, has dual citizenship & an arsehole father who expected me to not fight when faced with threats of deportation & having to leave my baby in the US ) this thread worries me.

I still have ongoing issues with our situation, despite all being sorted (3 year custody battle, phenomenal amounts of money, stress, upset & lots of difficulties for poor DS, even now... 4 years down the line).

Is this actually real? Do people really consider going thousands of miles to a different continent to have a baby, despite not being in a relationship with the father?

Utter madness.

Grockle's experience is very similar to mine and there a many many many parents out there who have found themselves in a similar situation and have had their lives ruled by this situation - its horrible.

I really wouldn't worry as she isn't even going to be allowed through immigration if they even let her on an aeroplane at 35 weeks.

I'm American. We're mean.

OP - she needs to speak to a lawyer/solicitor specialising in this area. I am British and live in the US. My second baby will be born here next week. Trust me, we have explored every possible avenue with regard to health insurance coverage, nationality, when you can fly and so on (incidentally, fine with BA up to 36 weeks with a Dr's letter).

There is so much misinformation here. Pls don't rely on this 'advice' with regard to such a crucial issue. However, I would agree with the general 'don't go' viewpoint. In fact, if I were your friend, I'd be tempted to have the baby in the UK and not register this man as the father.

Your friend is in a really dangerous situation. DH's cousin has had a nightmare getting her kids out of the country even with the father's consent. It just won't be doable under a visa waiver.

The child can still be a US citizen if born in the UK, although I'd think twice about it tbh.

Well Wibbly so far as misinformation, your last swentence implies she has options about registering or not registering the father.

As she's not married to the father unless he is there with her to register the birth , signs a statutory declaration he is the father or she has a court order naming him as the father ( none of which seem likely here) his name will not and can not go on the certificate. It's not optional.

www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/19/british-expat-couples-children

she needs to get expert legal advice, I am absolutely sure he has, which is why he pushing for this, the cost of an air fare for him, would be a tiny fraction of the cost of paying for a USA birth,

There are hundreds of women desperately trying to get custody of their own children, and get back to this country, he will be able to stop the child leaving, and she will not have a right to stay.

Let alone the risk of long haul travel that pregnant, without insurance.

The name on the birth certificate is all semantics anyway - if he decided he wanted to be on it after the fact all it would require is a paternity test and a short court hearing to get a Parental Responsibility Agreement in place if memory serves me correctly, and if the friend has bubs in the UK and does give him PR by putting him on the BC he still would be in with little chance to have the baby removed from this jurisdiction except in exceptional circumstances. If she gives birth in the US and he files either before she leaves the country or shortly after then it's an entirely different story all together....

Has she mentioned this to her midwife?

Putting that and the other concerns aside, I'm pretty sure there are consequences to being an American citizen abroad. You have to file taxes annually (even if your not liable to pay anything), I certainly wouldn't thank my parents for that if I had no intention to ever live there.

Sorry haven't read past first page - just a quick dose of MN on my lunch!! - but this isn't true in case she is worried about that.

My parents are British but had 3 children in the US whilst my dad was working there. So my 3 sisters are all dual nationality UK/ US. None of them has to file taxes annually except the one who still actually lives and works there.

It may be different if you have solely US nationality and live abroad.

I strongly recommend your friend reads the information on the following pages:

www.womenslaw.org/laws_state_type.php?id=12349&state_code=VA

It is noticeable that the default assumption here is that any parent trying to leave a country with a child is an abductor.

And once your an "abductor" you're pretty much screwed in the eyes of the court.

Oh no. This is so worrying. Even just reading it has filled me with dread.

There's a lot of advice and information here OP. I hope you manage to convey it to your friend so she keeps herself an her baby safe.

Given how important this is, OP, can we help you think about how to stage your intervention so that it is as likely as possible to succeed?

For example, thinking about what type of influence is most likely to persuade her:

• appealing to her emotions?
• hearing from someone in authority on the topic, eg a lawyer?
• asking her questions so that she discovers the issue for herself?
• telling her straight, or telling her subtly?
• telling her in one go, or telling her bit by bit?

Based on what you know about her, what do you think would work best?

Maternal mortality rates in the USA are far higher than the UK