to be concerned about my friend giving birth in the USA?

[YoniGetAnOohWithTyphoo]

My friend 'P' got pregnant by an american citizen (unplanned, on holiday kind of thing...) anyway, cut a long story short: he has said that whilst he isn't interested in her (and much less in coming over to the UK to play happy families), he, and moreover his mother, seem very keen for P to come over and give birth in the US, all expenses paid.

Whilst this seems like a nice gesture on the face of it, i'm a bit worried. Notwithstanding the fact that P seems to honestly think she's gonna fly to the USA alone at about 35 weeks pregnant (don't they have rules about this sort of thing?) with all the suitcases in tow, if a baby is born in the USA i'm worried it will be an 'american citizen' and as such, won't just be allowed to fly back to the UK. Do any mumsnetters know about this?

I'm haven't said much yet because I don't want to hurt her feelings or scare her, I know at the end of the day it's her choice... but I can't help thinking she hasn't thought this through. What do you guys think?

Helpful advice shandy

Gosh hope
Your friend is ok- she sounds like she wants the fairy tale!

Alarm bells say this won't end happy !!

Can she go back yet? I don't know what the rules are on how long you have to be out of the US before you re-enter but she can't have been in the UK for all that long.

I just cannot believe the way this thread is going. Get her to watch the film. And do whatever you possibly can to make her see sense. At least if the worst does happen, you'll know you did everything you could for her. It's looking more and more likely that by the time she sees sense and realises her judgement has been clouded by unrequited love, it'll be too late and she'll have lost her baby. Definitely one of the most alarming threads I've read on here.

I don't think the film has been suggested to give her facts about thf US (as obviously not relevant there) but to try to get her to face up to the emotional side, and to process the idea that she could lose her baby. She seems to be in complete denial, and a film might relate to her on a level that facts plainly aren't right now.

In fact there have been studies which show that people relate to stories more readily than facts and figures. It's why human culture is based on storytelling, and people listen to anecdotes even when facts / stats tell another story.

Can't hurt to try it anyway (if you can get her to actually watch it).

Very sad :( :(

I think all the advice about interventions, passport hiding etc is too late anyway. The baby is a us citizen and already habitually resident in the us (3 months). Baby has only been in uk one month.

She can't go back anyway as she won't be allowed in on another tourist 3 month visa so soon after her first one. (There are limits on how many visits, not sure on the details but it is certainly too soon as she has only been back a month).

She needs to start thinking rationally and practically. Take legal advice, think about her future (is there any way she can get a working visa to the us?). She needs to delay the return of the baby to the us, as I suspect it to be inevitable.

The fundamental problem is that the mother needs to stop being in denial and to get expert advise to find out what can be done to rescue the situation.

While she refuses to act on her own behalf it's simply a slow-motion car crash for others to watch in horror.

This is why i think she needs to somehow get a UK Health Visitor involved, she is only 3 months post natal and in all probability not thinking straight at the best of times (i know i wasnt at that point)

Although if she is not listening to friends and some family then not sure if she will take any notice of a HV.....

This is a bloody disaster. OP my only advice is to speak to charities that assist in international custody and kidnapping cases. I read the autobiography of Sir Christopher Mayer a while ago,he was the UK ambassador to the US on 9/11 and is heavily involved with a number of these groups as his wife's children were abducted by her German ex. Contact him, contact charities and get them to explain EXACTLY what will happen if she goes back to America. Youre running out of time here to stop this happening and need to take more drastic action.

That would be good but it'll go nowhere if she doesn't engage with the fact she's in a nightmare. She needs to be persuaded to go along to someone who has expertise in this area, with a family member or a close friend, and have it explained to her what the risks are. The family member/close friend can slap her hands away from her ears when she goes "lalalalalala not listening".

BTW, I wrote "advise" instead of "advice" above. Hangs head in shame.

She can't just refuse to return the baby to the US. The authorities will take him back. Mark my words.

If she arrives at US immigration the chances are very high that they're not going to let her in. She has stayed in the US for a long time already, she has a baby who was born in the US and she's there to stay with her boyfriend. All of those are huge red flags for US immigration because it looks like she will stay. It is most likely she and the baby would be put on a plane home.

There aren't any other visas that are going to work for her unless the father wants to marry her.

I guess the question is... will they take the baby off her at immigration and hand it over to the father. I would be very surprised if they did, unless the father has already been through some kind of court process.

So then the father is looking at using the courts to force her to send the baby over to the US.

The OP reported earier in the thread that they're married. A marriage of convenience (well, at least for him) but married nevertheless.

Paddy, at this point she CAN refuse to return the child to the US, at least as far as US law is concerned. There are no court orders currently in effect regarding custody. Absent court orders, possession really IS 9/10ths of the law. As far as the US legal system is concerned both parents have equal rights to the child absent court orders to the contrary. As an example, my own BFF's (then) husband had their son for the weekend shortly after they separated. When BFF went to pick him up he told her to 'sod off', that he wasn't giving him back (he wanted to be able to apply for welfare & would only qualify if he had a minor child in the home). She went to the police who told her there was nothing she could do because she had no court order stating that she had primary physical custody, that each parent has equal rights. Luckily, the child became a hassle to him long before any welfare claim could be processed & he soon called her to 'come pick this little shit up' because he wanted to go out drinking.

BD (baby daddy) can petition US courts for custody and get an order with her still in the UK, which I gather he's threatened to do. IMHO, he'll unfortunately have a pretty good case as far as the US justice system is concerned. And it would be a long, very expensive fight with her having to pay a US lawyer to fight on her behalf.

Oh... if they're married then US immigration definitely won't let her in without a spouse visa. That would take months to get and heavily involve the husband.

BD (baby daddy) can petition US courts for custody and get an order with her still in the UK, which I gather he's threatened to do. IMHO, he'll unfortunately have a pretty good case as far as the US justice system is concerned. And it would be a long, very expensive fight with her having to pay a US lawyer to fight on her behalf.

The case would be heard in the UK I think.

www.americanbar.org/newsletter/publications/gp_solo_magazine_home/gp_solo_magazine_index/oct99cro.html
"Abductions from the United States. If your client is in the United States and the child has been taken to another country that is a member of the Hague Convention, your client must contact the U.S. State Department’s Office of Children’s Issues (OCI) to start the process of filing a "petition for return" under the Hague Convention. The petition is transmitted from the OCI—this country’s "central authority" for such cases—to the foreign country’s central authority, and is then heard in the foreign country’s courts in the locality where the child has been taken. This requires a lawyer in the foreign country, who you can find with the help of the central authority or through the Directory of the International Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers. Also, many countries provide free Legal Aid lawyers for Hague Convention petitioners."

She should contact www.reunite.org/ they will help her not let him remove the baby I would think. They are very knowledgeable and have pretty much heard it all.

Only the initial case would be heard in the uk which would be to determine that the usa had jurisdiction to try the case as the child is considered habitually resident in the usa. Your friend p needs serious specialist legal advice on the pros and cons of returning to the usa and whether in the long run refusing would be beneficial or not.

I hope your friend sees sense and doesn't take her DS back to the US.

The OP's friend will no doubt be in even deeper trouble if the authorities get wind of the fact that she's had a marriage of convenience! She really has brought all of this on herself!

It's unclear what went on but it appears that she got married because her head was full of Mills & Boon and he got married so he'd increase his chances of getting hold of the child and then divorcing and dispensing with the mother.

wobbly- Right now it's not an abduction, because there is no order granting him custody. It's a parental abduction only when the other parent takes the child in violation of court order. He would first have to get a US court order granting him custody and then file a petition in the UK under the Hague Convention for the child to be returned, using the US court order as basis for that petition.

That's why I think she should get a custody order from a UK court first. Pre-emptive strike, as it were.

Although, based on what OP has said, she is so far gone in cloud-cuckoo land that she probably won't do anything.